PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

Blitzo

Blitzo

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Gloire_bb said:
It's both. RAM is a lot of power, but RAM is also a lot of drag (and noise, haha). Which is the problem - NGJ are clearly less draggy than 99 when stored(this was the requirement), but they have that big turbine when active. A lot of drag. Not good, not good.(in Trump voice).
I also don't know how flanker internal power compares to it, but either way - both are state of the art AESA systems from world leading electronic/comm developers.
99 is ultimately ancient, space race era archeotech, no matter how upgraded.

100%. And BTW interesting and often unnoticed point is how low in fact the ratio between line and ew bugs is.

All fair. Though PLAAF also has significant (high band?) escort capability via JH-7 escort pods.
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Yes, with regards to having a ram air turbine, I'm not saying it is inherently superior to J-16D/15D's setup because it depends on how the respective power output and respective parasitic drag works out on the specific aircraft -- but I would say that EA-18G with NGJ is not an overall system I would rate as less capable than J-16D/15D in isolation.

They have JH-7s and Flankers that do carry larger KG800 pattern pods, which do assist with providing some tactical escort/standoff jamming.


BoraTas said:
As @Blitzo addressed too, the Growler isn't ancient. The latest ALQ-99 is an early-00s tech. China has a lot of EW hardware of that sophistication too. Some started to get the new pods.

I disagree about the F-35 part. We don't have specific implementations public but every country which got the F-35 swear by its EW capabilities, especially regarding its emitter localization resolution which is said to be in multiples of even the best Western 4.5th gens and is still capable against lower band systems. I would also like to mention that the US has many EW pods in service. Newer ones of these like the ALQ-257 (service entry just started) uplift even the F-16 to well beyond what the best 4.5th gen tactical jets has. China may have similar pods in good numbers too, but we haven't seen such pods on Chinese aircraft for many times so I would not be comfortable with claiming it has. Such things are ubiquitous in USAF in comparison.
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The PLA has quite fairly proliferated self defense jamming pods (KG600 footprint) that they seem to field quite regularly on J-10, Flanker and JH-7A family aircraft, and I wouldn't be surprised if those pods have seen upgrades over time in the same footprint.

Where the PLA does lack is in quantity of dedicated EW birds like EA-18G/J-16D pattern, and they could also benefit from a more modern ARM form factor than YJ-91 as well. And of course, being able to integrate all of that more extensively into regular operations (which to their credit they seem to be doing, but again the fleet size difference matters).
 
doggydogdo

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BoraTas said:
As @Blitzo addressed too, the Growler isn't ancient. The latest ALQ-99 is an early-00s tech. China has a lot of EW hardware of that sophistication too. Some started to get the new pods.

I disagree about the F-35 part. We don't have specific implementations public but every country which got the F-35 swear by its EW capabilities, especially regarding its emitter localization resolution which is said to be in multiples of even the best Western 4.5th gens and is still capable against lower band systems. I would also like to mention that the US has many EW pods in service. Newer ones of these like the ALQ-257 (service entry just started) uplift even the F-16 to well beyond what the best 4.5th gen tactical jets has. China may have similar pods in good numbers too, but we haven't seen such pods on Chinese aircraft for many times so I would not be comfortable with claiming it has. Such things are ubiquitous in USAF in comparison.
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US is only ahead of China in EW if you count number wise, but if they face off against each other China's EW would be a lot more effective against American than the other way around due to them having much more AESAs assets. For example, most of the Arleigh Burke are still using PESA radars unlike Type 055 and Type 052D. China is able to jam more US assets so China should be ahead.
 
Blitzo

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doggydogdo said:
US is only ahead of China in EW if you count number wise, but if they face off against each other China's EW would be a lot more effective against American than the other way around due to them having much more AESAs assets. For example, most of the Arleigh Burke are still using PESA radars unlike Type 055 and Type 052D. China is able to jam more US assets so China should be ahead.
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That's really not how it works.

For example, while the 055 and 052D have AESAs as opposed to most Burkes which have PESAs, there are also much more Burkes than there are 055s and 052Ds together, and there are also much more EA-18Gs than J-16Ds. In a realistic conflict scenario, available force size will be as important as individual capability (and in this case it obviously isn't just the sophistication of the sensors or EW pods but also the payloads and weapons available etc).


So my advice is to stop trying to do mental gymnastics to come up with a way of arguing that PLA EW is ahead.

If the PLA had like 450 J-16Ds and 200 055s and 052Ds against 150 EA-18Gs and 80 total Burkes or something, then that would be something to actually acknowledge.
But as it stands, whatever minor advantage the PLA's forces may have in specific areas of qualitative sophistication are outweighed by fleet size/quantity, payload variety and disparity in recent exercise/implementation sophistication, so there's really no need to try and "eke out" a "win". Just being in the same overall playing field is a rather big achievement.
 
Wrought

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Blitzo said:
Where the PLA does lack is in quantity of dedicated EW birds like EA-18G/J-16D pattern, and they could also benefit from a more modern ARM form factor than YJ-91 as well. And of course, being able to integrate all of that more extensively into regular operations (which to their credit they seem to be doing, but again the fleet size difference matters).
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Isn't there a new ARM derived from PL-15? Don't think we ever got a designation for it though.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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Wrought said:
Isn't there a new ARM derived from PL-15? Don't think we ever got a designation for it though.
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We have yet to see its full characteristics, and if it is based on PL-15 in weight class then it is almost certainly going to be a lighter weapon than something like HARM or AARGMER
 
T

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Just wanted to say that the alq 249 pods - the NGJ mid band is apparently getting bought in very small numbers by the US. Some quick googling gave this:
2019 saw some developmental pods delivered to USN.
2022 saw first product-represenative pods delivered. all those were small quantities.
Concerning production contracts for US:
LRIP lot 1 - 3 shipsets (6 pods) in 2021
lot 2 - 5 shipsets also in 2021
lot 3 - 11 shipsets in 2023
lot 4 - 9-13 shipsets in 2024
lot 4 - 13 shipsets in 2025

Other bands are not there yet. low band NGJ pods had a contract winner selected in 2020 but there were issues and in 2024 there was a re-selection contract. So no pods have been delivered yet, AFAIK

high band NGJ pod is still nowhere to be seen, with no clear funding nor development timeline.

So, at best, USN has something like 40 Growlers equipped with NGJ mid band pods, out of a total fleet of something like 157. Ok, not all 157 would ever get pods due to mainteanace needs, but I'd imagine at least 120 shipsets is a goal. So they're barely one third way there. And with just one of the three band regions covered. Ok, the most important one of the three, but still.
 
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