PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

[BoraTas]

How is the US ahead in EW? And what's "ground observation stuff"?

They have like 150 Growlers and few dedicated EW C-130s. Also a lot of pods... In addition these, the F-35s are very potent in higher bands and they have 700+ of that. Ground observation stuff are basically ISR aircraft. The US fleet is very sizable with the U-2s, Tritons and Global Hawks, Rivet Joints, and their P-8s which can get the famous canoe-type ground observation radar too. They have the the RQ-170 and RQ-180 in service too. Especially the latter one is very important and will stay unique until the WZ-X enters service.

 

[ougoah]

They have like 150 Growlers and few dedicated EW C-130s. Also a lot of pods... In addition these, the F-35s are very potent in higher bands and they have 700+ of that. Ground observation stuff are basically ISR aircraft. The US fleet is very sizable with the U-2s, Tritons and Global Hawks, Rivet Joints, and their P-8s which can get the famous canoe-type ground observation radar too. They have the the RQ-170 and RQ-180 in service too. Especially the latter one is very important and will stay unique until the WZ-X enters service.

Growlers are great but these days they are super ancient and have received very few modernisation and upgrades over the years. J-16D and J-15DT are vastly superior to Growler. It's like comparing the latest Chinese chips to a Pentium 2. No one else on earth has dedicated airborne EW focused aircraft outside the US and China. Pakistan's Blinders based on Euro tech of the 2000s is not even a match for Growlers. Everyone else thinks they dabble in EW but the only EW masters are US and China. These countries have invested entire economies into developing and improving EW. They are playing with technologies the typical academic in Japan or western Europe would consider to be sci-fi if they ever got a days worth of look into US and Chinese EW research and development facilities.

If China ever gets into a war with India, everything in India is going to mysteriously shut down. Every military aircraft flying will have all their instruments go black. This is the ability of EW that the US introduced to China in the 1990s near the Taiwan Strait and since then China has considered this field as the absolute King of all military technologies and the most important piece of black magic in MIC. Every modern piece of equipment is conceptualised, planned, designed, evaluated and improved on a basis of EW context. It must fit within the framework of Chinese EW ecosystems. A war between US and China will be largely EW with the kinetic side only getting a firing solution and getting through because of superior EW. Every scenario is testing and eroding the resilience and effectiveness of the opponent's EW.

Not only does China have the airborne EW J-16D, J-15DT, it also has more Y-8 and Y-9 based "special mission aircraft", many of which have EW, SIGINT roles and ISR drones that are suitable for EW and/or SIGINT.




J-16D and J-15DT are much more powerful and modern compared to EA-18 Growler and the multitude of Y-8/9 EW SIGINT aircraft are FAR greater in numbers and modernity compared to EC-130H which barely number to 2 dozen and most are based in US and European theatre. There would only be a handful at most the US can muster to bring to Western Pacific.

China has so many types of EW airborne platforms one would need to do this full time as work to understand and track them all.

So many suitable large HALE drones that are suitable as EW platforms too. Not only WZ-7,8,9 but also the heavier unmanned ones and even UADFs since they use WS-10 engines they can probably generate quite a lot more juice to power EW equipment.

 

[BoraTas]

Growlers are great but these days they are super ancient and have received very few modernisation and upgrades over the years. J-16D and J-15DT are vastly superior to Growler. It's like comparing the latest Chinese chips to a Pentium 2. No one else on earth has dedicated airborne EW focused aircraft outside the US and China. Pakistan's Blinders based on Euro tech of the 2000s is not even a match for Growlers. Everyone else thinks they dabble in EW but the only EW masters are US and China. These countries have invested entire economies into developing and improving EW. They are playing with technologies the typical academic in Japan or western Europe would consider to be sci-fi if they ever got a days worth of look into US and Chinese EW research and development facilities.

If China ever gets into a war with India, everything in India is going to mysteriously shut down. Every military aircraft flying will have all their instruments go black. This is the ability of EW that the US introduced to China in the 1990s near the Taiwan Strait and since then China has considered this field as the absolute King of all military technologies and the most important piece of black magic in MIC. Every modern piece of equipment is conceptualised, planned, designed, evaluated and improved on a basis of EW context. It must fit within the framework of Chinese EW ecosystems. A war between US and China will be largely EW with the kinetic side only getting a firing solution and getting through because of superior EW. Every scenario is testing and eroding the resilience and effectiveness of the opponent's EW.

Not only does China have the airborne EW J-16D, J-15DT, it also has more Y-8 and Y-9 based "special mission aircraft", many of which have EW, SIGINT roles and ISR drones that are suitable for EW and/or SIGINT.


View attachment 167329

J-16D and J-15DT are much more powerful and modern compared to EA-18 Growler and the multitude of Y-8/9 EW SIGINT aircraft are FAR greater in numbers and modernity compared to EC-130H which barely number to 2 dozen and most are based in US and European theatre. There would only be a handful at most the US can muster to bring to Western Pacific.

China has so many types of EW airborne platforms one would need to do this full time as work to understand and track them all.

So many suitable large HALE drones that are suitable as EW platforms too. Not only WZ-7,8,9 but also the heavier unmanned ones and even UADFs since they use WS-10 engines they can probably generate quite a lot more juice to power EW equipment.

This post is Indian-chauvism tier. Especially this sentence is ridiculous:

They are playing with technologies the typical academic in Japan or western Europe would consider to be sci-fi if they ever got a days worth of look into US and Chinese EW research and development facilities.

Not only this is wayyyyy over the top, you also have zero means to know any of this. Empirically, Europe and Japan are no backwaters when it comes to RF. In fact the ntroduction of AESAs, GaN and digital beam forming happened in these places before the US.

And where India even came from in this discussion?

 

[doggydogdo]

They have like 150 Growlers and few dedicated EW C-130s. Also a lot of pods... In addition these, the F-35s are very potent in higher bands and they have 700+ of that. Ground observation stuff are basically ISR aircraft. The US fleet is very sizable with the U-2s, Tritons and Global Hawks, Rivet Joints, and their P-8s which can get the famous canoe-type ground observation radar too. They have the the RQ-170 and RQ-180 in service too. Especially the latter one is very important and will stay unique until the WZ-X enters service.

Most of these are way too old and wouldn't do much to modern AESA systems that can switch frequencies much faster than legacy EW platforms can react to. Also, F-35 isn't any better than 4.5th gen jets with similar radars at jamming and using them to jam would just give out the locations. China's electronics industry is just far larger than US's which gives them a massive edge on things like radars and Jammers, Raytheon literally relied on phone companies to provide them with GaN until a few years ago.

 

[Blitzo]

Most of these are way too old and wouldn't do much to modern AESA systems that can switch frequencies much faster than legacy EW platforms can react to. Also, F-35 isn't any better than 4.5th gen jets with similar radars at jamming and using them to jam would just give out the locations. China's electronics industry is just far larger than US's which gives them a massive edge on things like radars and Jammers, Raytheon literally relied on phone companies to provide them with GaN until a few years ago.

Growlers are great but these days they are super ancient and have received very few modernisation and upgrades over the years.

This is off topic and if the discussion continues I'll probably move the relevant posts to a different thread.

But I want to establish that Growlers have absolutely been upgraded both in terms of their internal systems and their EW pods (which are AESA jammers). Calling them "legacy" when they've had continuous upgrades is really stretching it.

As far as EW goes, the PLA has caught up significantly in qualitative capability (particularly with standoff based Y-8/9 airframe EW platforms -- but there is a good chunk of those airframes from the 2000s and early 2010s of lesser capability). In terms of actively fielded tactical EW/SEAD platforms like EA-18G/J-16D class, the US is still quite a bit ahead in quantity as well as experience and likely sophistication of routine operations.


US ISR is very capable as well; particularly their RQ-4, MQ-4C fleet and P-8s, which are all contemporary and not particularly old

 

[doggydogdo]

But I want to establish that Growlers have absolutely been upgraded both in terms of their internal systems and their EW pods (which are AESA jammers). Calling them "legacy" when they've had continuous upgrades is really stretching it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the AESA jammers (Next generation Jammer) for the growlers is just coming out?

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. A standard Growler is still probably on ICAP III levels which is early 2000s tech.

 

[Gloire_bb]

But I want to establish that Growlers have absolutely been upgraded both in terms of their internal systems and their EW pods (which are AESA jammers). Calling them "legacy" when they've had continuous upgrades is really stretching it.

All true:it's a 2010 jet. Not fresh, sure, but def not legacy.

They went through sustainable upgrades(which is fixing bugs through production run; happens with every new jet).

First big growled upgrade is happening soon, but not yet;
The only AESA jammer pod on EA-18 is being fielded as we speak (NGJ-MB). LB is in development, HB - stuck. New SEAD weapon - true, but it is not exclusively theirs.

Certain letdown from 2020s POV is AN/APG-79 - it was/is not part of the EW suit. Yet?

In this way, Chinese EW jets are substantially higher bar(though indeed a very fresh and quite likely still early in their path). State of the art Escort/stand off jammers in all 3 bands, unique radar system made for them specifically (screaming it's a full member of jamming suit), covering high band frontal "from the box".

 

[Blitzo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the AESA jammers (Next generation Jammer) for the growlers is just coming out?

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. A standard Growler is still probably on ICAP III levels which is early 2000s tech.

That's for a follow-on production contract.
NGJ Mid Band was declared IOC in one year ago.

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All true:it's a 2010 jet. Not fresh, sure, but def not legacy.

They went through sustainable upgrades(which is fixing bugs through production run; happens with every new jet).

First big growled upgrade is happening soon, but not yet;
The only AESA jammer pod on EA-18 is being fielded as we speak (NGJ-MB). LB is in development, HB - stuck. New SEAD weapon - true, but it is not exclusively theirs.

Certain letdown from 2020s POV is AN/APG-79 - it is not part of the EW suit.

In this way, Chinese EW jets are substantially higher bar(though indeed a very fresh and quite likely still early in it's path). Escort/stand off jammers in all 3 bands, unique radar system made for them specifically (screaming it's a full member of jamming suit), covering high band frontal "from the box".

J-16D from an airframe pov is of a same vintage technically speaking, and while their pods are likely more sophisticated than the original ALQ-99s used by the EA-18Gs, compared to NGJ we don't know how their output compares given they seem to be reliant on the airframe's own internal power output without a built in ram air turbine (which may or may not be a hinderance).

More importantly, the fact that the USN has over 150 such airframes and have integrated it into joint operations routinely over its service life and able to build upon decades of prior EA-6B operations, as well as having more appropriate HARM payloads of today cannot be ignored either (of course the PLA may have HARM weapons we do not know of).


All of which is to say -- the PLA's modern EW capabilities today are indeed impressive and competitive in many ways to the US (in terms of sophistication of EW platforms individually, it's fair to say both sides are probably approximately comparable with each other), but it is also accurate to say that the US is better placed in a "totalistic sense" if one considers fleet size, integration into regular operations, probable payloads, and library catalogue.

 

[Gloire_bb]

J-16D from an airframe pov is of a same vintage technically speaking, and while their pods are likely more sophisticated than the original ALQ-99s used by the EA-18Gs, compared to NGJ we don't know how their output compares given they seem to be reliant on the airframe's own internal power output without a built in ram air turbine (which may or may not be a hinderance).

It's both. RAM is a lot of power, but RAM is also a lot of drag (and noise, haha). Which is the problem - NGJ are clearly less draggy than 99 when stored(this was the requirement), but they have that big turbine when active. A lot of drag. Not good, not good.(in Trump voice).
I also don't know how flanker internal power compares to it, but either way - both are state of the art AESA systems from world leading electronic/comm developers.
99 is ultimately ancient, space race era archeotech, no matter how upgraded.

More importantly, the fact that the USN has over 150 such airframes and have integrated it into joint operations routinely over its service life and able to build upon decades of prior EA-6B operations, as well as having more appropriate HARM payloads of today cannot be ignored either (of course the PLA may have HARM weapons we do not know of).

100%. And BTW interesting and often unnoticed point is how low in fact the ratio between line and ew bugs is.

All of which is to say -- the PLA's modern EW capabilities today are indeed impressive and competitive in many ways to the US (in terms of sophistication of EW platforms individually, it's fair to say both sides are probably approximately comparable with each other), but it is also accurate to say that the US is better placed in a "totalistic sense" if one considers fleet size, integration into regular operations, probable payloads, and library catalogue.

All fair. Though PLAAF also has significant (high band?) escort capability via JH-7 escort pods.

 

[BoraTas]

Most of these are way too old and wouldn't do much to modern AESA systems that can switch frequencies much faster than legacy EW platforms can react to. Also, F-35 isn't any better than 4.5th gen jets with similar radars at jamming and using them to jam would just give out the locations. China's electronics industry is just far larger than US's which gives them a massive edge on things like radars and Jammers, Raytheon literally relied on phone companies to provide them with GaN until a few years ago.

As @Blitzo addressed too, the Growler isn't ancient. The latest ALQ-99 is an early-00s tech. China has a lot of EW hardware of that sophistication too. Some started to get the new pods.

I disagree about the F-35 part. We don't have specific implementations public but every country which got the F-35 swear by its EW capabilities, especially regarding its emitter localization resolution which is said to be in multiples of even the best Western 4.5th gens and is still capable against lower band systems. I would also like to mention that the US has many EW pods in service. Newer ones of these like the ALQ-257 (service entry just started) uplift even the F-16 to well beyond what the best 4.5th gen tactical jets has. China may have similar pods in good numbers too, but we haven't seen such pods on Chinese aircraft for many times so I would not be comfortable with claiming it has. Such things are ubiquitous in USAF in comparison.