News on China's scientific and technological development.


hullopilllw

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Exclusive video: Huawei CTO on how company will change your life
Watch an Asia Times webinar in which Huawei CTO Paul Scanlan talks with Editor Uwe Parpart
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SEPTEMBER 16, 2020

If you thought Huawei was a handset and telecom equipment company, you’re wrong: Huawei wants to enable the Fourth Industrial Revolution. 5G is just a springboard to make technologies possible that will change the way everyone lives.

In the latest Asia Times Webinar, Huawei CTO Paul Scanlan discusses everything from how US sanctions are affecting the company to the Harmony operating system.

He also touches on the potential sale of chipmaker ARM to Nvidia and Huawei’s global presence and work culture.

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When they say that the Chinese companies think far ahead, it is not an exaggeration.
 

machupicu

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Guys, I'm not techy. So please bear with me. I found this from the New York Times. And thought interesting read. Especially about the chip makers SMIC and TSMC and ASML. And how CHINA is still dependent on the two foreign companies for their chips.

So how dependent is China? And if so, can US decapitate Huawei?

America Is Going to Decapitate Huawei
The United States’ technological dominance gives it an immense power. But how long will that last?

By Chris Miller
Mr. Miller is an economic historian.
  • Sept. 15, 2020
China “plans to dominate the world’s digital infrastructure,” Attorney General William Barr
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. A “truly Orwellian surveillance state” is just around the corner, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
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. In fields from facial recognition to artificial intelligence to 5G telecom technology, it often seems like China has already become the world’s technology superpower.

rest of the article:

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NYTimes and WSJ articles can easily fool their readers lol. Decapitate Huawei lol. About 60% of huawei's sales are derived from domestic markets, right? But remember the world is huge, 7b ppl, which means the next 20 yrs it's likely the sales will be 30 china, 70 others
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
China should also consider starting a state owned fab that pursues 7Nm or 14Nm node using domestic equipment. Since it's state owned, cost or profit doesn't matter. Its sole purpose is to be a supplier of last resort to companies like Huawei. Even if it loses money or uses inefficient techniques, that doesn't matter because its backed by the state and using domestic equipment means its unsanctionable by the USA chip Gestapo.

Being state owned it can stand up to the Amerikkkan chip Gestapo and refuse to bow to sanctions or entity list. Plus the CCP has absolute control meaning Huawei will always have a reliable backup plan.
 

latenlazy

Colonel
We need some semiconductor industry expert, anyone here?
I could be wrong here but I think the math on this should be pretty straightforward. If we simplify each nanogap to a single transistor spacing that would be 500,000 transistors per hour. Apple’s recently announced A14 chip has almost 12 billion transistors. Just for a single A14 chip alone that would take 24000 hours. If the transistors are stacked you can divide that by a factor of 3. ASML’s current EUV scanners can output about 120 *wafers* per hour, and each wafer is multiple chips. This is why production at scaled requires masked scanners, and why masked write tech is difficult to scale.

Asked a friend at Intel. TLDR you can't really compare it directly

Conventional techniques don't use lasers, so it's already not a 1:1 comparison

Fabs also measure equipment speed in WPH, Wafers per Hour, not nanogap electrodes per hour, since complete litho machines work on a defined wafer size (200mm or 300mm wafers). Given that this is a theoretical/experimental technique, there's no actual implementation right now.

Furthermore, nanogap electrodes are....esoteric, to say the least. So far everything I have read indicate that it isn't a full transistor, but rather used to join molecular components together or used as part of a transistor.

Assuming that each nanogap electrode represents a single transistor, this would mean that it's at a rate of 50k transistors per hour. Way too slow to be useful.

In comparison, EUV machines at Intel outputs around 100 wafers per hour, with each wafer having more than a trillion transistors, which makes me question whether the electrodes are being used as part of a transistor or not, or why they decided to report the speed using that particular measurement.
To be clear scanners don’t make full transistors either. They make the specific material and chemical trace patterns for the transistor spaces. The transistors themselves are then created with implantation and deposition machines.
 

siegecrossbow

Brigadier
Staff member
Super Moderator
Guys, I'm not techy. So please bear with me. I found this from the New York Times. And thought interesting read. Especially about the chip makers SMIC and TSMC and ASML. And how CHINA is still dependent on the two foreign companies for their chips.

So how dependent is China? And if so, can US decapitate Huawei?

America Is Going to Decapitate Huawei
The United States’ technological dominance gives it an immense power. But how long will that last?

By Chris Miller
Mr. Miller is an economic historian.
  • Sept. 15, 2020
China “plans to dominate the world’s digital infrastructure,” Attorney General William Barr
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. A “truly Orwellian surveillance state” is just around the corner, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
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. In fields from facial recognition to artificial intelligence to 5G telecom technology, it often seems like China has already become the world’s technology superpower.

rest of the article:

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According to industry insiders Huawei's cellphone chips can last till early next year but the chips for 5G base stations can last several additional years.

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与手机芯片至少数千万的需求不同,华为每年基站出货量在几十万台左右。而且其中很多芯片是28纳米及以上的工艺,英特尔等厂商有拿到美国的出货许可。兴业证券在研报中透露,华为目前基站端7纳米芯片、零部件备货充足,有望支撑数年经营发展。
 

emblem21

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think you are over generalizing. I am not talking China in general but specifically about SMIC. It acts differently due worrying about their stock price.
Who cares, the stock market for all these tech companies are going down right now anyways
According to industry insiders Huawei's cellphone chips can last till early next year but the chips for 5G base stations can last several additional years.

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Hmm, by then Huawei should either be able to buy there necessary chips again depending on how things develop in the near future or Huawei should be able to buy there chips domestically for all its needs and hence there shouldn't be a remote issue with regards to the USA trying to pull what they are pulling now. Also to note that should the USA end up in a situation where all of there most important infrastructure end up decaying to the point of uselessness, China then easily restrict all access to Chinese tech and rare earths at a good time when the USA is weakened enough. Why I think this is because as it is noted, the entire western part of the USA is on fire and a lot of places in Silicon valley are located in the area. Hence if the supply chains in the USA are effected badly enough, the USA and possibility by extension any other nation the relies on USA tech are going to be in a great deal of trouble when the USA cannot access rare earths and has to face the prospects of having to develop there own rare earths processing capability, an area that the USA is far behind China, both in expertise and money, not to mention time as well. Hence the USA unless they start getting there whole mess sorted out before the election, they will inevitably end up in a situation where no amount of money can help them
 

machupicu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can Huawei survive the U.S. chip ban?

...
How can Huawei survive the crisis? Using stockpiles and reshaping the supply chain would be the answer.

"It's a very significant threat!" Edgar Perez, an independent consultant, told CGTN. However, he added that in the short term, Huawei could rely on its stockpiles.

"Fortunately, the company has prepared for it well. In the past few days, we hear that a plane full of chips came from Taiwan, bringing in supplies, specifically before today's unfortunate ban. It now looks like the company is well prepared for at least six months," said Perez, a keynote speaker and founder of MrEdgarPerez.com.

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Awenumick

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In Depth: China Chip Sector Has the Money, Now It Just Needs the Workers

"Fierce bidding for China’s limited pool of chipmaking talent has led to a surge in wages, much of that from young firms that are long on cash but short on experience. That’s fueling concerns that China’s limited chip talent may end up falling into an unproductive and wasteful cycle that sees people jumping from one short-lived startup to the next in a greedy dash for cash.

Such waste is similar to the U.S. dot-com bubble of the late 1990s, which saw investors pour similar amounts into startups without any proven records or business models. In China such cycles are even more common as Beijing often pumps similar big bucks into sectors it wants to develop, such as new-energy cars and solar power."
 

Awenumick

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In Depth: China Chip Sector Has the Money, Now It Just Needs the Workers

"Fierce bidding for China’s limited pool of chipmaking talent has led to a surge in wages, much of that from young firms that are long on cash but short on experience. That’s fueling concerns that China’s limited chip talent may end up falling into an unproductive and wasteful cycle that sees people jumping from one short-lived startup to the next in a greedy dash for cash.

Such waste is similar to the U.S. dot-com bubble of the late 1990s, which saw investors pour similar amounts into startups without any proven records or business models. In China such cycles are even more common as Beijing often pumps similar big bucks into sectors it wants to develop, such as new-energy cars and solar power."
Another important part: "That part of the sector is attractive due to its asset-light nature, compared to the manufacturing side that typically requires billions of dollars in investment for sophisticated equipment and highly specialized workers"
So they are basically fabless companies, probably using US equipments just like SMIC did. It's concerning. The Chinese government should only fund the companies that are using Chinese parts solely; one non-chinese part and you are not eligible for subsidy.
 

TD739

New Member
Registered Member
The painful lesson has taught China not to depend on US parts.

It should dismantle the current COMAC 919 now and going back to drawing board using domestic parts otherwise it's a waste of time and resources.
 

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