News on China's scientific and technological development.


Peter2018

Junior Member
Registered Member
Great policy. China needs to start giving preferential treatment to companies that transfer technology into the country. If the US doesn't like it they can raise a WTO dispute.
The US has sabotaged WTO's system of dispute resolution, because they fear many countries will bring cases against them.

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AndrewS

Major
Registered Member
Is this already better than Intel's process?
My guess is that SMIC 7nm would be comparable to Intel 10nm when they both start mass production next year.

Comparative figures below

2014: Intel 14nm - 44 MTr/mm²
2021: Intel 10nm - 100 MTr/mm²

2018: TSMC 7nm DUV - 91 MTr/mm²
2019: TSMC 7nm+ EUV - 115 MTr/mm²
2020: TSMC 5nm EUV - 171 MTr/mm²
2021: TSMC 3nm EUV - ??
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
@WTAN, you seem to know more about chips. Is this source credible?
Yes, it is very likely that SMIC will be producing their own 7nm Chips soon. SMIC has apparently been developing their 7nm FINFET Chip technology for quite a while but have been hampered in production by lack of technology (Did SMIC get the latest DUV Litho machine from ASML?)

It recently inked a R&D and Cooperation Agreement with SMEE which will open the way for production of the 7nm Chips. This means it will probably be using the latest SMEE 22/28nm DUV Litho Equipment to produce these 7nm Chips for a Special Customer.

These two article i believe explain what happened and how the breakthrough in production of the 7nm Chips happened for SMIC.

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Quickie

Major
I don't think so .... now the process width is just a marketing gimmick, the more important factor is how many billions transistor per mm2
The number of transistors per mm2 refers to the transistor packing density on the die that will determine the die size and ultimately the chip size for a certain number of transistors.

On the other hand, nm process refers to the size of the component parts of the individual transistor itself which then determines the more important characteristics of the transistors such as power efficiency and processing speed.

While the size of the chip of let's say 7nm process produced by the DUV would be about 15% to 20% larger than that produced by the EUV process, their performance in terms of power efficiency and processing speed will be the same.

This way there won't be really an issue between the EUV and DUV process (maybe outside of chip production efficiency and cost) if a slightly larger chip size is not a problem and only the chip performance matter.
 

AndrewS

Major
Registered Member
Yes, it is very likely that SMIC will be producing their own 7nm Chips soon. SMIC has apparently been developing their 7nm FINFET Chip technology for quite a while but have been hampered in production by lack of technology (Did SMIC get the latest DUV Litho machine from ASML?)

It recently inked a R&D and Cooperation Agreement with SMEE which will open the way for production of the 7nm Chips. This means it will probably be using the latest SMEE 22/28nm DUV Litho Equipment to produce these 7nm Chips for a Special Customer.

These two article i believe explain what happened and how the breakthrough in production of the 7nm Chips happened for SMIC.

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Apparently Samsung has already put together a test 7nm production line without any US equipment.

I wonder what has happened to it
 

ansy1968

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi WTAN, Skywatcher and SUPERDOG.

need your opinion regarding the article below, can it be done without any interference from US govt?

from cnTechPost
SoftBank investors reportedly in talks with SMIC over ARM deal
2020-08-06 20:07:29 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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SoftBank investors reportedly in talks with SMIC over ARM deal-cnTechPost

SoftBank and bankers have approached several new tech giants about a potential ARM sale, including TSMC, Qualcomm, and even China's largest chip foundry SMIC, according to
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.

A number of companies, including TSMC, Foxconn, and NVIDIA, have been provided with select financial data and performance projections prepared by ARM to help evaluate potential acquisitions or investments. SoftBank has also previously approached Samsung, Apple, and Qualcomm, though none of them were interested in buying ARM.

According to the report, TSMC and Foxconn have shown some interest, while NVIDIA is in deeper talks to buy ARM outright, rather than just acquiring a large stake.
Their difficulty, however, is that they do not have sufficient funds, namely NVIDIA is in talks to acquire its British chip design subsidiary ARM from SoftBank in a cash-and-stock deal that values ARM at more than $32 billion.
In addition, the report also mentioned that TSMC and Foxconn are more inclined to take a stake in ARM, or join the consortium to acquire, as to how SoftBank is thinking is not clear, but the two programs seem to be more reliable.


According to the report, SoftBank approached many tech industry bosses. SoftBank is eager to find new investors because they have their own financial problems that they want to resolve as quickly as possible.
SoftBank is not going to sell all of ARM, still considering that it will hold a stake in ARM, and also does not rule out going public through an IPO, but in this case, SoftBank will also hold ARM shares.

The report also mentioned that some bankers are even in talks with Chinese companies, including SMIC.
It's even less clear if SMIC will be chosen.



As the co-founder of ARM, Hermann Hauser has commented on the fact that NVIDIA wants to buy ARM. In his opinion, it would be a disaster if NVIDIA buys ARM.
ARM, founded in 1990 and headquartered in Cambridge, UK, developed the low-power CPU instruction set.

It now has a global monopoly on IoT and mobile devices. Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Huawei, and virtually every chip developer needs ARM's intellectual property if they are to design processor chips for their mobile devices.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Apparently Samsung has already put together a test 7nm production line without any US equipment.

I wonder what has happened to it
The Samsung FAB probably exists and is being kept secret or low key. I wouldnt be surprised if it is relocated to China in order to take advantage of the Tax Breaks recently announced by the Chinese Govt.

The SMIC FAB that produces for Special Customers also very likely uses SMEE DUV and all Indigenous Chinese Equipment and probably some Japanese ones.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Samsung FAB probably exists and is being kept secret or low key. I wouldnt be surprised if it is relocated to China in order to take advantage of the Tax Breaks recently announced by the Chinese Govt.

The SMIC FAB that produces for Special Customers also very likely uses SMEE DUV and all Indigenous Chinese Equipment and probably some Japanese ones.
As long as Trump and his former tea party member subordinates rule the roost, aka Pompeo, Josh Hawley and so on, No US action is impossible. They will go to any length to stop China's tech rise. Samsung is a korean firm, a US client-state. If US really squeezed the Korean govt, would they not give in? Of course they will. But if they did not, which impossible currently, US can easily squeeze Samsung by threatening to put it on the entity list or threatening US financial sanctions or threatening to bar it from the US market.

China simply cannot rely on American vassal states anymore. This means no Europeans, Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese or Singaporean company is reliable. Guess what, these countries completely control the Chip industry.

China will have to start from scratch on this. A Chinese architecture or an open source one. Chinese lithography machine and all the other tools. They need to develop a new tech eco-system of hardware and software. A Chinese phone OS and Chinese internet services like Gmail/Google Maps.

Ofcourse they will not be able to do this overnight and possibly not in 30-40 years. So, they are trying to delay the inevitable western cutoff as long as possible to get as much time/profit/know-how as they can. But, this is only temporary. China will have to prepare for a complete tech blockade from US vassals. Does that mean China will not trade with them? No they will. But in low tech stuff like washing machine or car parts and oil.

China will have to develop its own tech system of everything and they will have to rely on non-western markets such as Africa/Latin America/Middle-East/ASEAN and its own vast market. Is it enough? It is, because these countries are the emerging markets and they are growing much faster than the rich western world. These countries have more population than the western vassal states. You cannot become a superpower while relying on your rival's courtesy. the rest if the world will be the battleground between two tech ecosystems. China was able to grow for many years without western attack. But that time is over. Its time for China to grow up and become truly independent.
 

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