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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Japanese and Korean culture picked up rice planting long after rice planting had dispersed into Chinese culture. In fact Chinese culture picked up rice planting before the Japanese and Korean cultures that are self recognized in their respective places today had formed, at least that we have historical evidence of.

Wu, Minnan, and Yue cultures are also all derivations from later Chinese culture, and didn’t yet exist at the point when rice planting was first moving through the rest of Asia. There is substrata of non Chinese influences in *all* Chinese subcultures, from other cultural groups that assimilated into Chinese culture, but these assimilations seemingly also occurred long after rice planting had already reached early Chinese culture. What we recognize as attribute to be historically contiguous Chinese culture today was planting rice before Chinese culture had expanded into the geographies where Wu, Minan, and Yue subcultures eventually formed.

It is also incorrect to say that Korean and Japanese cultures are a mix of Han, Manchu, and Mongol, since Manchu and Mongol cultures didn’t “exist” in their contemporaneously self identified forms when self identified Korean and Japanese cultures formed, but it would be correct to say that a dominant cultural input into the formation of Korean and Japanese culture that’s self identified today probably came from Bronze Age Northeast Asian cultural complexes, who may or may not have been precursors to the Asian steppe cultures we recognize today. However, in Japan there is also a strong substrata of cultures that preceded population inflows from Bronze Age Northeast Asia, of which we know at least the Ainu descended from, but which was mostly absorbed by whichever (likely Bronze Age Northeast Asian) cultural identity the Yamato people were.


There is genetic evidence between Japanese, Southern Korean and Yangtze Delta people. Yayoi is connected from two groups, one group directly migrating from the Yangtze delta river mouth, and the other, Yangtze delta people that migrated to South Korea first, then migrated to Japan. Not only they brought these genetic links, but also the rice breeds from the Yangtze.

I should add to the fact that the original layer of Chinese words first imported to the Japanese language were of the Wu dialect, once again, which are the people that settled in the Yangtze delta. Hence they are referred to as Go-on. Chinese words that were imported from the Tang Dynasty are referred to as Kan-on. An example of a Go-on reading is Nin for 人, which is Jin in Kan-on, and Ren in Mandarin.
 

AndrewS

Colonel
Registered Member
There is genetic evidence between Japanese, Southern Korean and Yangtze Delta people. Yayoi is connected from two groups, one group directly migrating from the Yangtze delta river mouth, and the other, Yangtze delta people that migrated to South Korea first, then migrated to Japan. Not only they brought these genetic links, but also the rice breeds from the Yangtze.

I should add to the fact that the original layer of Chinese words first imported to the Japanese language were of the Wu dialect, once again, which are the people that settled in the Yangtze delta. Hence they are referred to as Go-on. Chinese words that were imported from the Tang Dynasty are referred to as Kan-on. An example of a Go-on reading is Nin for 人, which is Jin in Kan-on, and Ren in Mandarin.

Source please
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
There is genetic evidence between Japanese, Southern Korean and Yangtze Delta people. Yayoi is connected from two groups, one group directly migrating from the Yangtze delta river mouth, and the other, Yangtze delta people that migrated to South Korea first, then migrated to Japan. Not only they brought these genetic links, but also the rice breeds from the Yangtze.

I should add to the fact that the original layer of Chinese words first imported to the Japanese language were of the Wu dialect, once again, which are the people that settled in the Yangtze delta. Hence they are referred to as Go-on. Chinese words that were imported from the Tang Dynasty are referred to as Kan-on. An example of a Go-on reading is Nin for 人, which is Jin in Kan-on, and Ren in Mandarin.
Yes but we don’t know if these genetically related groups that migrated to Korea or Japan were also culturally “Chinese”. “Chinese” culture today was first formed from a composite of several groups (three sovereigns and five kings) and then incorporated yet more groups as “Chinese” cultural influence and territory expanded. During the Shang and Xia dynasties and even after there were other Northeast Asian cultures that were likely genetically related and shared some genealogical origins even if they didn’t share cultural identities. Whatever progenitors of Japanese and Korean cultures were could have simply picked up rice planting through cultural diffusion without more direct genealogical ties. After all, Japanese and Korean are about as genetically distant from Chinese as they are from Mongolic and (East Asian) Turkic peoples. Furthermore, the Japanese and Korean languages, while showing very heavy evidence of contact and borrowing from Chinese across multiple time periods, don’t share the same basic structures and don’t belong in the same language families, which probably suggests, even if there are genealogical ties, a divergence in the cultures that preceded the formation of these languages. We can’t even trace very precisely when these cultural forks may have happened because of subsequent mixing of genetic stocks from further population contact back and forth between these cultures. There’s actually just a lot about the cultural and political makeup of Neolithic and early Bronze Age Asia that we simply don’t know much about, due to a lack of written records. It’s not until the Zhou dynasty that we begin to have some more detailed records of what civilizations around East Asia looked like.

Anyways, this is a fun subject for me but we are way way way off topic and we should probably stop or finding a different place to continue this discussion.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes but we don’t know if these genetically related groups that migrated to Korea or Japan were also culturally “Chinese”. “Chinese” culture today was first formed from a composite of several groups (three sovereigns and five kings) and then incorporated yet more groups as “Chinese” cultural influence and territory expanded. During the Shang and Xia dynasties and even after there were other Northeast Asian cultures that were likely genetically related and shared some genealogical origins even if they didn’t share cultural identities. Whatever progenitors of Japanese and Korean cultures were could have simply picked up rice planting through cultural diffusion without more direct genealogical ties. After all, Japanese and Korean are about as genetically distant from Chinese as they are from Mongolic and (East Asian) Turkic peoples. Furthermore, the Japanese and Korean languages, while showing very heavy evidence of contact and borrowing from Chinese across multiple time periods, don’t share the same basic structures and don’t belong in the same language families, which probably suggests, even if there are genealogical ties, a divergence in the cultures that preceded the formation of these languages. We can’t even trace very precisely when these cultural forks may have happened because of subsequent mixing of genetic stocks from further population contact back and forth between these cultures. There’s actually just a lot about the cultural and political makeup of Neolithic and early Bronze Age Asia that we simply don’t know much about, due to a lack of written records. It’s not until the Zhou dynasty that we begin to have some more detailed records of what civilizations around East Asia looked like.

Anyways, this is a fun subject for me but we are way way way off topic and we should probably stop or finding a different place to continue this discussion.

Not sinic language but Austronesian and Austro-Asiatic languages.

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Proto-Austroasiatic_migration.png
 

Tse

New Member
Registered Member
Not sinic language but Austronesian and Austro-Asiatic languages.

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View attachment 77210
thats not possible. the austroasiatic peoples have haplogroup o1b1. ancient and modern japanese and koreans have haplogroup o1b2 which diverged from o1b1 28,000 years ago. the ancient yangtze culture such as the liangzhu culture is clearly o-m119 which is even more distant, and is found mainly in guizhou Gelao people and taiwan aborigines
 

AndrewS

Colonel
Registered Member
thats not possible. the austroasiatic peoples have haplogroup o1b1. ancient and modern japanese and koreans have haplogroup o1b2 which diverged from o1b1 28,000 years ago. the ancient yangtze culture such as the liangzhu culture is clearly o-m119 which is even more distant, and is found mainly in guizhou Gelao people and taiwan aborigines

Did you read the papers (and others like it)? It suggests the language of the Yayoi displaced the Jomon language, because the Yayoi were richer and more technologically advanced.


Yayoi linked to Yangtze area
DNA tests reveal similarities to early wet-rice farmers

The Japan Times, March 19, 1999
trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm

Some of the first wet-rice farmers in Japan might have migrated from the lower basin of China's Yangtze River more than 2,000 years ago, Japanese and Chinese researchers said Thursday.

This was suggested by DNA tests conducted by the researchers that showed genetic similarities between human remains from the Yayoi Period found in southwestern Japan and the early Han Dynasty found in China's central Jiangsu Province, Satoshi Yamaguchi told reporters.

People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.
The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.

Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.-8) in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.

The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.

Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.

But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
What do you know turn out Yayoi and Yomon are not the only component of Japanese DNA they only make small part of DNA constitute only 17% each But 71% of Japanese DNA come from East Asia origin closely resemble Han Chinese! Latest research based on extracted ancient Japanese DNA during Kofun period. This Kofun period is very interesting socalled "horse riding warrior because they introduce horse and armor from east Asia. Ther is this Korean guy who has fascinating website about the origin of Japanese I forgot his name basically he said that Kofun horse riding warrior resembled warrior from Paekche and offshoot of Guguryeo/Puyo
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But 71% of their ancestry was found to come from a third ancient population with East Asian origins that arrived at roughly 300 AD to launch what is called the Kofun period, bringing various cultural advances and developing centralized leadership. These migrants appear to have had ancestry mainly resembling the Han people who make up most of China's population.

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Study rewrites understanding of modern Japan's genetic ancestry​

FILE PHOTO: Geishas, traditional Japanese female entertainers, perform their dance during a press preview of the annual Azuma Odori Dance Festival in Tokyo
Will Dunham
Fri, September 17, 2021, 1:08 PM


By Will Dunham
(Reuters) - An analysis of ancient DNA is transforming the understanding of the genetic ancestry of Japan's modern-day population, identifying a crucial contribution from people who arrived about 1,700 years ago and helped revolutionize Japanese culture.

Research published on Friday showed that the people of Japan bear genetic signatures from three ancient populations rather than just two as previously thought - a more complex ancestry for the archipelago nation of roughly 125 million.
The researchers analyzed genetic information from 17 ancient Japanese people - DNA extracted from the bones of 12 specifically for this study and five done previously - and compared it to genomic data for modern Japanese people.


Previously documented genetic contributions were confirmed from two ancient groups. The first was Japan's indigenous culture of hunter-gatherers dating to roughly 15,000 years ago, the start of what is called the Jomon period. The second was a population of Northeast Asian origins who arrived at about 900 BC, bringing wet-rice farming during the subsequent Yayoi period.

Modern Japanese possess approximately 13% and 16% genetic ancestry from those two groups, respectively, the researchers determined.
But 71% of their ancestry was found to come from a third ancient population with East Asian origins that arrived at roughly 300 AD to launch what is called the Kofun period, bringing various cultural advances and developing centralized leadership. These migrants appear to have had ancestry mainly resembling the Han people who make up most of China's population.

"We are very excited about our findings on the tripartite structure of Japanes
e populations. This finding is significant in terms of rewriting the origins of modern Japanese by taking advantage of the power of ancient genomics," said geneticist Shigeki Nakagome of Trinity College Dublin in Ireland, co-leader of the study published in the journal Science Advances.

The research demonstrates the ability of ancient DNA to uncover new ancestral components that could not be seen using modern genetic data, added study co-leader Daniel Bradley, also of Trinity College Dublin.
The study showed that people from Japan's ancient foraging, agrarian and state-formation cultural phases each provided a significant contribution to the ancestry of today's Japanese population, Nakagome said.

The oldest of the skeletons from which DNA was extracted was a female dating to around 9,000 years ago from a Jomon period site in Ehime Prefecture, while the most recent were three skeletons from about 1,500 years ago from a Kofun period site in Ishikawa Prefecture, according to geneticist and study co-leader Takashi Gakuhari of Kanazawa University in Japan.
The Kofun period is named after the large earthen tombs built for members of the new ruling class at a time of the importation of technology and culture from China by way of the Korean peninsula.
"Chinese characters started to be used in this period, such as Chinese characters inscribed on metal implements, for example swords," Nakagome said.


Insularity was a byproduct of Japan's island geography, surrounded by oceans that made migration in ancient times difficult. The first people to reach Japan arrived more than 30,000 years ago at a time of lower sea levels when there may have been a land bridge to the Asian mainland.
The researchers also said the genetics of Japan's population have remained largely stable since the Kofun period, which lasted from around 300-700 AD.
(Reporting by Will Dunham in Washington, Editing by Rosalba O'Brien)
 
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