Naval Strategic and Operational Discussion

shen

Senior Member
Sure, here he talks about Chinese ADIZ

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I watched the video and read a couple of articles by him. I don't find anything disagreement between what he says, what you and latenlazy is saying and what the Asian Time article says.

In the short run, US welcomes limited Japanese rearmament (that's really the wrong word to describe it, as Japan is already heavily armed. more accurate to say allow Japan more freedom to use its armed forces) to help America carry more weight in the region. But in the long run, a more independent Japan make come back to bite the US in the ass because it may have different interests that conflict with America's.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
If, as you say, none of the rules are set in stone, then why didn't China get an invitation to be a founding member? Even if no one believes China will join, the US still should have extended an invite. Also, if the US had no intention of using TPP as a containment tool, then it shouldn't have invited Vietnam while skipping China.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it isn't chicken.

Well, first off, keep in mind that the US was not the one who initiated the TPP. The TPP started between Brunei, Singapore, New Zealand, and Chile. Second, the US technically didn't officially invite anyone. Countries first show interest and ask to be part of the negotiations, and then the concurrent TPP members agree or disagree to invite other countries. Of course, the US encouraged certain countries to join through other diplomatic avenues and the backdoor, but it helps that once you have an economy the size of the US on board you generate a natural gravity towards the trade agreement. Third, keep in mind that technically SK and Japan weren't "invited" into the TPP until 2013, with some convincing by the US, so except for the US actively trying to recruit or not recruit certain countries, the TPP negotiations haven't excluded anyone.

Now that we've got that cleared up, if I'm right about the hedging strategy, then it would be counterproductive to the intent of the strategy to invite China before you've established the standard framework of the agreement and collected enough members. Growing the size of the trade pact before inviting China has the benefit not depending on China to make the framework valuable and powerful, and of making China want to opt in. It also bolsters the legitimacy of and establishes the relationships in a multilateral framework outside of China's influence, so that if China does join (and the hope is that it will want to because of the potential size and value of the agreement) it can't bend and shape it solely to fit its own interests. Finally, the US anchoring the agreement establishes an alternative superpower that will play nice, so that if China decides to be too aggressive or one sided in its relationships with its neighbors it risks increasing US influence, which further incentivizes China to play nice.

None of these objectives can be accomplished by inviting China first. If China were invited before a multilateral framework is legitimized and normalized with other countries, the trade agreement quickly begins revolving around the two elephant economies in the room, pushing out the relevance of all the other countries involved. You give too much say to China on what the framework looks like before less influential countries are able to get something that might be more agreeable to them, and thus give China leverage to establish unequal relationships or to poison the well (note that this focus on establishing a multilateral framework before inviting China is a counter strategy to China's attempts to deal with each of its neighbors bilaterally, a divide and conquer strategy). Now, one could accuse the US of pursuing a similar tact to establishing relationships that favour itself at the detriment of other countries, but that would be a false equivalency. The US is not a geographically local power, and so does not have the potential or interest to pursue the kind of coercive avenues with the East Asian countries that China would have.

The way the US is approaching the TPP is a deliberate attempt to hedge against an aggressive China without trying to isolate a China that may be more interested in cooperation. It's not about excluding China at all costs, but about establishing norms that meet aggressive behavior with economic exclusion, but friendly behavior with economic benefits. Collecting other powers to join the TPP first before inviting China is an attempt to create a massive trade agreement carrot, with the nice superpower looking to strengthen friendships with China's neighbors being a proverbial stick. It is the difference between inviting someone to shape an organization with you, and creating an attractive organization before inviting someone to join. If China has interest in the TPP, it will eventually be invited, but not until the TPP is a more material agreement than it is now. This is the politics of trade negotiations, where sequence matters. An invite results in different outcomes at different stages of a trade pact.

Will such a strategy work? We will see. Any number of things can go wrong that could kill the TPP. If that's the case though, I fully expect the US to realize this approach to dealing with China in other ways. After all, in the last three years the TPP hasn't been the only permutation of this approach. We can also look to the US's relationship with Myanmar. The fundamental principle is to set a higher standard for relationships in the region in order to incentivize China to meet those standards as opposed to dictate its own. (Mommy will have trouble disciplining her child if Daddy is always giving the child candy). Interestingly enough, we've also seen China fight fire with when Xi bolstered China's relationship with Latin America before visiting Obama at Sunnylands.

I watched the video and read a couple of articles by him. I don't find anything disagreement between what he says, what you and latenlazy is saying and what the Asian Time article says.

In the short run, US welcomes limited Japanese rearmament (that's really the wrong word to describe it, as Japan is already heavily armed. more accurate to say allow Japan more freedom to use its armed forces) to help America carry more weight in the region. But in the long run, a more independent Japan make come back to bite the US in the ass because it may have different interests that conflict with America's.

But, that's where the disagreement is. I am saying the State Dept does not like Abe's hawkish politics (even if they understand why he's pursuing it, and it has a lot more to do with Japan's turbulent domestic politics than with a real intention to militarize Japan) at all, right NOW, not even limited rearmament. The US is getting bitten in the butt by Abe's hawkish policies even at this very moment (especially with SK).
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
And you answered correctly. That's why US want to get Japan as equal partner in alliance.

'Militarization' of Japan, 'right wing swing' is of course product of PRC propaganda agencies who don't like the move. The only addition to the current state of things from China perspective would be only the capabality of pre-emptive strike on strategic facilities from Japanese SDF side. Untying hands of Japanese means for China also that they can be side in a conflict and that's huuge strategic pain in the ass if there will be military treaties signed between Japan, India, Taiwan, Australia and some ASEAN countries. US Navy could be more concentrated on the South-East Asia relieved in the north to a certain level at the same time.

US could benefit greatly by the change of Japanese constitution.


Quite on the contrary, Japan's desire to change her her pacifist constitution does not stem from willingness to remain second fiddle to the United States. United States has no interest in japan being anything other than second fiddle to the United States.

What the United States wants is a japan totally bounded by pacifist constitution on the international stage except where American needs cannon fodder. What japan wants to to be free of its pacific its constitution so she can act unilaterally while stringing the United States along as second fiddle to Japanese interests in the pacific.

Since WWII, Japanese Asian foreign policy, even with pacifist constitution, is singularly unsuccessful, and japan has been inept in creating good will or engendering political confidence from much of Asia even when japan has world's second largest economy and did not threaten anyone at all.

I think US realize nothing has changed and a independent japan is unlikely to suddenly acquired the never previously exhibit diplomatic tact or subtlety. As a result, independent japan is very likely a severe and unpredictable liability for the US. So there really isn't much of real convergence of interest between the US and Japanese nationalists.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Well, first off, keep in mind that the US was not the one who initiated the TPP. The TPP started between Brunei, Singapore, New Zealand, and Chile. Second, the US technically didn't officially invite anyone. Countries first show interest and ask to be part of the negotiations, and then the concurrent TPP members agree or disagree to invite other countries. Of course, the US encouraged certain countries to join through other diplomatic avenues and the backdoor, but it helps that once you have an economy the size of the US on board you generate a natural gravity towards the trade agreement. Third, keep in mind that technically SK and Japan weren't "invited" into the TPP until 2013, with some convincing by the US, so except for the US actively trying to recruit or not recruit certain countries, the TPP negotiations haven't excluded anyone.
Noted.

Now that we've got that cleared up, if I'm right about the hedging strategy, then it would be counterproductive to the intent of the strategy to invite China before you've established the standard framework of the agreement and collected enough members. Growing the size of the trade pact before inviting China has the benefit not depending on China to make the framework valuable and powerful, and of making China want to opt in. It also bolsters the legitimacy of and establishes the relationships in a multilateral framework outside of China's influence, so that if China does join (and the hope is that it will want to because of the potential size and value of the agreement) it can't bend and shape it solely to fit its own interests. Finally, the US anchoring the agreement establishes an alternative superpower that will play nice, so that if China decides to be too aggressive or one sided in its relationships with its neighbors it risks increasing US influence, which further incentivizes China to play nice.
Why would it be counterproductive to invite China before all the rules are established? The US has been trying very hard to get China to join various global institutions, but China refuses many of the overtures on grounds it objects to rules it had no hand in crafting. Inviting China early in the process is the very thing one would do if one truly wants China to feel invested in the enterprise.

None of these objectives can be accomplished by inviting China first. If China were invited before a multilateral framework is legitimized and normalized with other countries, the trade agreement quickly begins revolving around the two elephant economies in the room, pushing out the relevance of all the other countries involved. You give too much say to China on what the framework looks like before smaller countries are able to get something that might be more agreeable to them, and thus give China leverage to establish unequal relationships or to poison the well (note that this focus on establishing a multilateral framework before inviting China is a counter strategy to China's attempts to deal with each of its neighbors bilaterally, a divide and conquer strategy). Now, one could accuse the US of pursuing a similar tact to establishing relationships that favour itself at the detriment of other countries, but that would be a false equivalency. The US is not a geographically local power, and so does not have the potential or interest to pursue the kind of coercive avenues with the East Asian countries that China would have.
Most political scientists claim for the next few decades, US-China is the most important bilateral relations in the world. Anything that gets the two closer will serve to reduce tensions in Asia; which is the very thing all nations say they want.

The way the US is approaching the TPP is a deliberate attempt to hedge against an aggressive China without trying to isolate a China that may be more interested in cooperation. It's not about excluding China at all costs, but about establishing norms that meet aggressive behavior with economic exclusion, but friendly behavior with economic benefits. Collecting other powers to join the TPP first before inviting China is an attempt to create a massive trade agreement carrot, with the nice superpower looking to strengthen friendships with China's neighbors being a proverbial stick. It is the difference between inviting someone to shape an organization with you, and creating an attractive organization before inviting someone to join. If China has interest in the TPP, it will eventually be invited, but not until the TPP is a more material agreement than it is now. This is the politics of trade negotiations, where sequence matters. An invite results in different outcomes at different stages of a trade pact.
We agree on your view in bold. However, inviting Vietnam and not China sends the wrong message, because Vietnam has a ways to go just to reach where China is today, let alone what TPP may eventually require. Let's face it, Vietnam is the odd duck and its inclusion makes TPP look like containment.

Will such a strategy work? We will see. Any number of things can go wrong that could kill the TPP. If that's the case though, I fully expect the US to realize this approach to dealing with China in other ways. After all, in the last three years the TPP hasn't been the only permutation of this approach. We can also look to the US's relationship with Myanmar. The fundamental principle is to set a higher standard for relationships in the region in order to incentivize China to meet those standards as opposed to dictate its own. (Mommy will have trouble disciplining her child if Daddy is always giving the child candy). Interestingly enough, we've also seen China fight fire with when Xi bolstered China's relationship with Latin America before visiting Obama at Sunnylands.
If we treat China like a friend, China may or may not return the favor, but if we treat China like an adversary, that's exactly what we'll have.

But, that's where the disagreement is. I am saying the State Dept does not like Abe's hawkish politics (even if they understand why he's pursuing it, and it has a lot more to do with Japan's turbulent domestic politics than with a real intention to militarize Japan) at all, right NOW, not even limited rearmament. The US is getting bitten in the butt by Abe's hawkish policies even at this very moment (especially with SK).
Abe's problem isn't being hawkish, since he'll get support from other ASEAN countries to get tough with China. Abe's problem is he's part of Japan's extreme rightwing that denies war crimes and wants to rewrite Japan's imperialist history. On the former, he's in good company with Vietnam, Philippines, Australia, Singapore, and Taiwan, but on the latter, he's at odds with the US and with most of his neighbors.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Why would it be counterproductive to invite China before all the rules are established? The US has been trying very hard to get China to join various global institutions, but China refuses many of the overtures on grounds it objects to rules it had no hand in crafting. Inviting China early in the process is the very thing one would do if one truly wants China to feel invested in the enterprise.
1) Because China has no incentive to join one unless it sees something in it for itself. By inviting China after all the other countries have joined you create that incentive (because the trading pot is bigger).

2) By establishing the institution before inviting China, you make that multilateral framework function independent of China's cooperation. That way if China doesn't want to cooperate, it simply loses out. If it does want to cooperate, it has to play by rules all the other member nations agreed to instead of rules its crafted to help itself (which is different if China is invited in the earlier stages and has a greater say in how the rules work). It doesn't have the option of co-opting or reshaping the institution to its favour, or dismantling or compromising the institution if everyone else benefits at its expense.


Most political scientists claim for the next few decades, US-China is the most important bilateral relations in the world. Anything that gets the two closer will serve to reduce tensions in Asia; which is the very thing all nations say they want.
And my point isn't to minimize that relationship, but to point out the different ways which that relationship is crafted and how that affects the behavior of the two countries, which in turn dictate how peaceful or tense that relationship is. It should also be noted that as China's influence grows, more and more of the US-China relationship will also be affected by each country's relationship with other country's. In the case of of a hedge strategy with TPP, the US's goal is to change the regional payoff structures to get China to prefer cooperating with its neighbors, because this eases potential security tensions China may have with US allies.

We agree on your view in bold. However, inviting Vietnam and not China sends the wrong message, because Vietnam has a ways to go just to reach where China is today, let alone what TPP may eventually require. Let's face it, Vietnam is the odd duck and its inclusion makes TPP look like containment.
If it sent China the wrong message, then I don't think we would have seen the overtures to China joining the TPP we've seen on both the Chinese and US sides.

Keep in mind that getting countries like Vietnam and the Philippines involved first before pulling China in is critical to what the US wants out of the TPP, which is to get China to play nice with countries like those two. Let's say if both China and Vietnam want nothing to do with each other. If you invited China before you invited Vietnam, China would have the power to reject Vietnam and no one could persuade it otherwise, but if you have Vietnam join first, and then China, you could persuade Vietnam to not reject China's inclusion because you do have persuasive power over Vietnam. You don't get China to be nice to countries it has belligerent disagreements with by enabling it to not deal with those countries. You want to get China to build positive points in those relationships so that both sides begin building a diplomatic relationship that can resolve their disagreements. That's also why you want multilateral frameworks where no one country has too much power over the rules and no one country is critical to its legitimacy.

If we treat China like a friend, China may or may not return the favor, but if we treat China like an adversary, that's exactly what we'll have.
Relationships between countries are not defined by binaries.

Abe's problem isn't being hawkish, since he'll get support from other ASEAN countries to get tough with China. Abe's problem is he's part of Japan's extreme rightwing that denies war crimes and wants to rewrite Japan's imperialist history. On the former, he's in good company with Vietnam, Philippines, Australia, Singapore, and Taiwan, but on the latter, he's at odds with the US and with most of his neighbors.

Abe will never be able to get support from all ASEAN countries. Most people don't pay enough attention to China's relationship with Cambodia, Thailand, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia.

Abe is more of a smart pol and less of a true believer than a lot of people (especially many Chinese people) give him credit for. He needs the right wing because it's the only constituent group in Japan's electorate that doesn't vote on the economy. The right wing provides Abe a steady base which can provide some insulation against referendums and votes of no confidence as he tries to fix Japan's economy. Does he have nationalistic sentiments? I'm pretty sure he does. Is he so blindly zealous and tribal that he would choose to push those sentiments at the cost of his relationship with SK, the US, and China? No. He's being inflammatory because of his political strategy. He's really no different than some of the GOP who pay lip service to the crazies in the Tea Party so they don't get primaried. The political leadership in China, SK, and the US all know this, but they can't afford to be understanding, either in the public eye or the back door.
 
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a1a2a3a4a5a6a

New Member
Registered Member
""Because China has no incentive to join one unless it sees something in it for itself. By inviting China after all the other countries have joined you create that incentive (because the trading pot is bigger).""

True and same for the US. But first, incentives shouldn't be mostly negative reinforcements, as in coercion and control, but rather, trying to strive for win-win resolutions. Second, working on the premises of China-phobia would naturally produce recurring suggestions of negative reinforcements.

""By establishing the institution before inviting China, you make that multilateral framework function independent of China's cooperation. That way if China doesn't want to cooperate, it simply loses out.""

Let's turn the table. Hypothetically, if China were to present such a goody the other way around, should the US feel welcome? So before complaining about China, also consider the self-serving deals that the US have been dishing out.

""If it does want to cooperate, it has to play by rules all the other member nations agreed to instead of rules its crafted to help itself (which is different if China is invited in the earlier stages and has a greater say in how the rules work). It doesn't have the option of co-opting or reshaping the institution to its favour, or dismantling or compromising the institution if everyone else benefits at its expense.""

Should the above and other similar situations enough incentives for China to consider the US as an adversary? Blackstone has correctly pointed out that "if we treat China like an adversary, that's exactly what we'll have."

""And my point isn't to minimize that relationship, but to point out the different ways which that relationship is crafted and how that affects the behavior of the two countries, which in turn dictate how peaceful or tense that relationship is.""

As mentioned earlier, working on the premises of China-phobia would naturally produce recurring suggestions of negative reinforcements. And unwelcoming proposals would receive what else but unwelcoming responses.

""If it sent China the wrong message, then I don't think we would have seen the overtures to China joining the TPP we've seen on both the Chinese and US sides.""

Because China is playing the game in ways that some may not be aware of. For example, Xi-Li are also using the requirements of the TPP as excuses for governmental reforms, similar to using the requirements of the WTO as excuses for economic reforms in the 90's. Much as bringing an external consultant firm to become excuses for internal restructuring of a company.

""Keep in mind that getting countries like Vietnam and the Philippines involved first before pulling China in is critical to what the US wants out of the TPP, which is to get China to play nice with countries like those two.""

Until the US and those other nations also learn to cooperate with China, it is futile to single-mindedly complain about China.

""Relationships between countries are not defined by binaries. (adversary-friend)""

An "adversary-friend" model is already far ahead of a US-centric model.

""Abe will never be able to get support from all ASEAN countries. Most people don't pay enough attention to China's relationship with Cambodia, Thailand, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia.""

Japan, the US, and China are all playing geopolitics. For example, if there were nothing wrong about the US's relationship with Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, then there is nothing to complain about "China's relationship with Cambodia, Thailand, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia", other than yet another example of China-phobia.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
True and same for the US. But first, incentives shouldn't be mostly negative reinforcements, as in coercion and control, but rather, trying to strive for win-win resolutions. Second, working on the premises of China-phobia would naturally produce recurring suggestions of negative reinforcements.
It's nice to think nations states play nice, but all nation states go with what works. For what it's worth, leveraging a trade agreement to get a country to be friendly with its neighbors isn't very negative. Any cost to China in the model of interaction I'm presenting would be self inflicted. The US is simply there to be the good cop for China's neighbors if China wants to play bad cop. If China also wants to play good cop then there isn't any problem.


Let's turn the table. Hypothetically, if China were to present such a goody the other way around, should the US feel welcome? So before complaining about China, also consider the self-serving deals that the US have been dishing out.
Well, that depends. The point is to make something attractive enough for China to want to be a part of it, even if it doesn't get as much say in the rules and workings of the thing as it wants. Keep in mind I'm not saying that China would be particularly disadvantaged in a situation like that, but that it wouldn't be able to as particularly advantage as they may want to be. I'm not complaining about China here. I'm simply pointing out the logic of the approach.

Either way, the evidence seems contrary to the conclusion that China is feeling hostility towards the TPP. Rather, they seem interested above all else.

Should the above and other similar situations enough incentives for China to consider the US as an adversary? Blackstone has correctly pointed out that "if we treat China like an adversary, that's exactly what we'll have."

Should the US conclude that the UN is adversarial just because they don't get to dictate how other countries vote? What I'm describing is hardly adversarial. China isn't being treated as an opponent. It's simply being treated as another political actor with its own interests, some of which aligns with yours and some of which may not.

As mentioned earlier, working on the premises of China-phobia would naturally produce recurring suggestions of negative reinforcements. And unwelcoming proposals would receive what else but unwelcoming responses.

My premise is hardly based on China phobia. The US wanting to change the regional incentives so that China acts more cooperatively isn't treating China as an adversary. You don't try to encourage your adversaries to play nice. You don't welcome an adversary's interest in free trade agreement (as Obama has). Does the US want to influence China's behavior? Sure, just as China would like to influence the US's behavior, or any country would want to influence any other country's behavior. Just like how I might want to influence a friend's behavior, or a common bystander's behavior, if there's an interest there for me. What really matters is why, for what kinds of interests, and how. That's the standards by which we judge how negative or positive one country's behavior to another is, not whether a country is looking to influence another country to more closely meet their interests.

Because China is playing the game in ways that some may not be aware of. For example, Xi-Li are also using the requirements of the TPP as excuses for governmental reforms, similar to using the requirements of the WTO as excuses for economic reforms in the 90's. Much as bringing an external consultant firm to become excuses for internal restructuring of a company.
Well aware, but that doesn't change the fact that China is interested and having parties involved it doesn't get along with hasn't deterred that interest. Besides, it's unlikely that having Vietnam on TPP would be seen by China as adversarial. China is projected to be Vietnam's biggest trade partner by 2030 anyways, so whatever "bad blood" clearly doesn't seem to exist in the realm of trade.


Until the US and those other nations also learn to cooperate with China, it is futile to single-mindedly complain about China.

I do not think that the US has been uncooperative with China on the TPP, nor vice versa. If you want to point out where either side has be my guest.

An "adversary-friend" model is already far ahead of a US-centric model.
There are more models than "adversary-friend". These relationships rest on degrees over multiple facets.

Japan, the US, and China are all playing geopolitics. For example, if there were nothing wrong about the US's relationship with Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, then there is nothing to complain about "China's relationship with Cambodia, Thailand, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia", other than yet another example of China-phobia.

I wasn't complaining about those relationships. I was pointing out that China has very strong relationships with half of ASEAN that could sway those countries in its direction, so to suggest that Abe could sway ASEAN against China would be overlooking how heterogenous ASEAN's relationship to China is. No China phobia. Simply pointing out why Japan wouldn't necessarily have ASEANs backing if things heated up with China.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
"Until the US and those other nations also learn to cooperate with China, it is futile to single-mindedly complain about China.
As we have seen, the US does cooperate with China, and vice versa. Militarily, economically, and politically.

There are numerous examples, from joint exercises against pirates, to joint exercises right now involving the Syrian chemical weapons, to the upcoming RIMPAC exercises (which is a very big deal), to both nations denouncing certain types of regimes and behavior, to the huge trade agreements and deals between the countries, The US did not become the largest user of Chinese goods by accident or in a vacuum, or vice versa.

Clearly both countries do this in what they perceive to be their best immediate and long term interests...with trade offs between the two as they seem warranted.

Geo-strategically and politically this is going to continue. There are areas where the US and China can and will unite and work together. There will also be areas where the interests diverge and the chance for friction arises.

We can only hope, and work together, to the best of our collective ability to make the former far outnumber and outweight the latter.

In the mean time, because both nations themselves depend heavily on open sea lanes to move commerce, material, and resources to and from their countries, and for their allies. As a result, they both have and will continue to have capable and strong navies to protect those sea lanes and the commerce, material, and resources flowing on them...from whatever the threat.
 

a1a2a3a4a5a6a

New Member
Registered Member
""It's nice to think nations states play nice, but all nation states go with what works.""

The comments that follow are misguided in several ways.

""For what it's worth, leveraging a trade agreement to get a country to be friendly with its neighbors isn't very negative.""

First, no matter how you spin the situation, coercion and control are negative reinforcements to begin with, regardless of whether the media are trade agreements or military deployments. Second, the nations involved are all playing geopolitics for their own interests, including the US. It is only disinformation to purposefully label US's interests as "friendly" and China's interests as "unfriendly". Third, the nations involved, including the US, are also liable of acting "friendly", so that the situation would become conducive for China to return the favor. Negative reinforcements are only conducive to unwelcoming responses.

""Any cost to China in the model of interaction I'm presenting would be self inflicted.""

On the contrary, for example, TPP is led by the US, so any cost should primarily be "self-inflicted" by the US. Let's place liability where liability is due.

""The US is simply there to be the good cop for China's neighbors if China wants to play bad cop. If China also wants to play good cop then there isn't any problem.""

The problem is that, in the genuine spirit of cooperation, it isn't primarily upto the US to define what are "good" or "bad" as conforming to US's interests. But rather, the terms should be negotiated among all participants including China. It is also disinformation to label maintaining US's interests as "good cop" and otherwise "bad cop". Apparently the US has yet to learn what it takes to foster cooperation in a multipolar world.

""Well, that depends. The point is to make something attractive enough for China to want to be a part of it, even if it doesn't get as much say in the rules and workings of the thing as it wants.""

The above comment is similar to a habitual HS bully (the US) who doesn't know how to tacitly approach a potential friend (China) and falls back to negative reinforcements (pre-negotiated terms without China) as if they were perversely "attractive enough" for a potential friend.

""Keep in mind I'm not saying that China would be particularly disadvantaged in a situation like that, but that it wouldn't be able to as particularly advantage as they may want to be. I'm not complaining about China here. I'm simply pointing out the logic of the approach.""

Similar to the perverse logic of a habitual HS bully.

""Either way, the evidence seems contrary to the conclusion that China is feeling hostility towards the TPP. Rather, they seem interested above all else.""

Habitual HS bullies would also gladly consider their targets as "willing and receptive" as well, in order to justify their aggressive behaviors toward others.

""Should the US conclude that the UN is adversarial just because they don't get to dictate how other countries vote?""

The above comment is misguided again as China would prefer, for example, earlier participation in the negotiation of the TPP terms, instead of being purposefully excluded. Nothing even close to China trying to "dictate" the TPP terms. On the other hand, the US is indeed trying to impose the pre-negotiated terms with coercion for self-serving interests.

""What I'm describing is hardly adversarial.""

What are opponents for, if such were consider as "friendly".

""China isn't being treated as an opponent. It's simply being treated as another political actor with its own interests, some of which aligns with yours and some of which may not.""

Then there is nothing to complain about China as the game of geopolitics is played by all sides serving their own interests, which also means China is entitled to as much maneuver as the US does. And as mentioned earlier, unwelcoming proposals would receive what else but unwelcoming responses. The US deservingly received what the US asked for.

""My premise is hardly based on China phobia.""

The more you single-mindedly complain about China not conforming to US interests, the more it shows that you are indeed working on the premises of China-phobia.

""The US wanting to change the regional incentives so that China acts more cooperatively isn't treating China as an adversary. You don't try to encourage your adversaries to play nice. You don't welcome an adversary's interest in free trade agreement (as Obama has).""

The above is yet another example of China-phobia, when conforming to US's interests is relabeled as "cooperation" and imposing pre-negotiated terms with coercion is relabeled as "encouragement and welcoming". With such perversed logic, as mentioned earlier, the US deservingly received what the US asked for.

""That's the standards by which we judge how negative or positive one country's behavior to another is, not whether a country is looking to influence another country to more closely meet their interests.""

As mentioned earlier, then there is nothing to complain about China as the game of geopolitics is played by all sides serving their own interests. It is only fair for the US to take as much favor in return for what are being dished out.

""Well aware, but that doesn't change the fact that China is interested and having parties involved it doesn't get along with hasn't deterred that interest.""

The above comment is ignoring the fact that, for example, the TPP terms were pre-negotiated and purposefully excluding China's participation in the negotiation. If such were considered as "friendly", then the US shouldn't mind to move a step back and let China take a "friendly" lead in the TPP. This is yet another example of working on the premises of China-phobia.

""I do not think that the US has been uncooperative with China on the TPP, nor vice versa. If you want to point out where either side has be my guest.""

A habitual HS bully would be unable to consider their aggressive behaviors as perverse either. But the simple fact is that, such persons would immediately complain when they can't get what they want.

""There are more models than "adversary-friend". These relationships rest on degrees over multiple facets.""

There is mainly one facet in your above comments ----- US-centric in an "uncooperative" multipolar world, where China isn't necessarily acting along with US interests. And conforming to US's interests is relabeled as "good" while otherwise relabeled as "bad" and hence, China-phobia become the working premises, which would naturally produce recurring suggestions of negative reinforcements.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
a1a2a3a4a5a6a, in the future, please use the "Reply with Quote," or the "Milti-quote." buttons below the post in quetion to quote other posters and answer them.

It makes your reply much more ledgible and easier for other pmembers to follow.


Thanks.
 
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