Naval Strategic and Operational Discussion

shen

Senior Member
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at. I'm not suggesting that China's global interests could trigger a conflict, but that it is vulnerable globally so long as it has global interests. Other conflicts that may be more regional could result in China's global assets being targeted in the right circumstances (such as a stalemated or prolonged conflict), which would then expand the conflict globally. Conflicts don't always remain in the domain of their origin.

There are instances in history where war becomes the justification for itself and all other things drop to the wayside. Nothing technically justified all the disruptions that came with World War I, but it happened anyways. I think we all agree that rationally speaking there is no foreseeable conflict between China and any other power where the disruption of global trade is justified, but that does not preclude the possibility or even probability of that event.

One should not treat global trade as some absolute preventative factor. If the US were to try to impose a blockade on China, that would not spell absolute doom for the global economy. Trade flows would adjust around it, especially since most countries that absolutely depend on China for trade are developing countries. The developed countries have other, though less optimal, options.

Also, keep in mind that part of what you're suggesting, that imposing a blockade would take a long time and be too disruptive to global trade, ultimately hinges on how prepared China is to contest that blockade. If it cannot contest it, then such a blockade would be relatively short and its disruption would be minimal. As I also suggested in my first entry:

"countering a blockade would not be as simple as diverting a few of your SSNs to pick off enforcers. Those enforcers will be defended by their own subs, as well as other forward deployed assets that are acting as both support and relief. Keep in mind that even after China has achieved a satisfactory level of modernization, the USN will probably still be the bigger force. This puts pressure on China to scale its commitments to breaking a blockade with the USN's commitments to enforcing one."

What specific Chinese global interests would be vulnerable? China has no major alliance, no protectorates, no overseas bases. When China buy oil from Angola, iron ore from Australia, trade with Germany, those trade relationships are not just Chinese interests, they are are also Angolan, Australian and German interests. Should a third party seek to disrupt those relationships, over some regional dispute in ECS or SCS, it harms not just China but all countries trading with China. And China doesn't only have significant trade with developing countries. Many developed countries also have China among their top three trade partners. In the news today, South Korea publicly announced it is prioritizing bilateral free trade deal with China over TPP negotiation. That's not surprising if one looks at the Korean trade figures. The fragile Japanese economy can't survive a major trade disruption with China.

The major cause of WWI was the extensive alliances system which allowed a small regional conflict to trigger a global war. China is not a part of such military alliance. Where many see this as a Chinese weakness, I see it as a strength, it give China more flexibility to deal with problems individually, it is and the natural position for the Central Kingdom. Given the lesson of history, international military alliances should be seen as the greatest enemy of international peace. Conflicts between nations should be resolved bilaterally, without dragging in or taken advantage by third parties.

I still don't understand how an aggressive forward deployment of PLAN in the Indian Ocean would deter or protect Chinese SLOC. A major PLAN presence in the Indian Ocean would threaten India and SEA nations and push them closer to the US, increase the potential threat to Chinese SLOC. In wartime, disperse of PLAN is exactly what it shouldn't do. Whereas it is realistic for a concentrated PLAN to have superiority in its home water, it is not realistically possible for a dispersed PLAN be have superiority everywhere. In a hypothetical conflict with Japan, I don't see ROCN or ROKN coming to the aid of Japan. Maybe the Filipino Navy will send their ships :) USN assets would be disperse globally, busy inspecting container ships according the above scenario.
 

shen

Senior Member
for PLAN to aggressively counter a distant blockade, it would transform the potential of a global conflict into a reality. by concentrating in its home water, focused on accomplishing the immediate political goals close to home, it would try to contain a regional conflict regionally.

how would a distant blockade end swiftly and decisively even if PLAN doesn't take any step to counter it? how long did British blockade of Germany during WWI begin to have effect? it is arguable whether any distant blockade can have a decisive effect even if given unlimited time.

while PLAN is concentrating on accomplishing regional goals, unilateral action by third party is stopping foreign flagged civilian ships and disrupting international trade, harming the economies of many countries without any interests in the regional conflict. all the while these illegal searches and seizures risk plunging the world into a worldwide conflict.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
What specific Chinese global interests would be vulnerable? China has no major alliance, no protectorates, no overseas bases. When China buy oil from Angola, iron ore from Australia, trade with Germany, those trade relationships are not just Chinese interests, they are are also Angolan, Australian and German interests. Should a third party seek to disrupt those relationships, over some regional dispute in ECS or SCS, it harms not just China but all countries trading with China. And China doesn't only have significant trade with developing countries. Many developed countries also have China among their top three trade partners. In the news today, South Korea publicly announced it is prioritizing bilateral free trade deal with China over TPP negotiation. That's not surprising if one looks at the Korean trade figures. The fragile Japanese economy can't survive a major trade disruption with China.
Depending on the scale and type of conflict, having trade relationships with other countries is not immunity to having those relationships disrupted. As for China having no major protectorates and oversea bases, if China's dependence on raw materials from abroad continues its trajectory, those will change.


The major cause of WWI was the extensive alliances system which allowed a small regional conflict to trigger a global war. China is not a part of such military alliance. Where many see this as a Chinese weakness, I see it as a strength, it give China more flexibility to deal with problems individually, it is and the natural position for the Central Kingdom. Given the lesson of history, international military alliances should be seen as the greatest enemy of international peace. Conflicts between nations should be resolved bilaterally, without dragging in or taken advantage by third parties.
We can nitpick the specifics of WWI, but the main reason why I brought it up was to point out how global interconnected-ness and trade in not a guarantee against global conflict. There's more than one way to skin a cat, just as there's more than one way for a global conflict to emerge in an interdependent world.

I still don't understand how an aggressive forward deployment of PLAN in the Indian Ocean would deter or protect Chinese SLOC. A major PLAN presence in the Indian Ocean would threaten India and SEA nations and push them closer to the US, increase the potential threat to Chinese SLOC. In wartime, disperse of PLAN is exactly what it shouldn't do. Whereas it is realistic for a concentrated PLAN to have superiority in its home water, it is not realistically possible for a dispersed PLAN be have superiority everywhere. In a hypothetical conflict with Japan, I don't see ROCN or ROKN coming to the aid of Japan. Maybe the Filipino Navy will send their ships :) USN assets would be disperse globally, busy inspecting container ships according the above scenario.

Before I get into the actual naval combat aspect of this reply, let me first get the security IR out of the way. Southeast Asia and India don't need China establishing a naval presence in the Indian Ocean to push them towards the US. With SEA, it's already happening because of the island disputes in the South China Sea. With India, it's already happening because India has always felt threatened by China. China expanding its naval presence into the Indian Ocean would not exacerbate these relationships anymore than if they simply grew in military strength without going into the Indian Ocean. Nor does establishing bases in the Indian Ocean worsen China's prospects at being able to improve its relations with those countries. That part of international relations rest on factors that largely lie outside of how big and strong your military is or where it's being placed. (Negative reaction to another military is a result of bad relationships. The presence of that military is not the cause of the bad relationship).

If you don't have any forward deployment of your navy to protect your SLOCs, there's nothing you can do if another power decides to set up blockades and check points along your major trade routes. You can't even send your navy to those point to contest a blockade as it's being threatened because you don't have the basing and logistics to support such an effort. If you tried without the basing and logistics support it would end in a fools errand and likely very swift defeat. Keep in mind it's not as simple as sending some ships to a location and starting a fight. Any effort to impose a blockade by a power like the US comes with serious support and relief assets backed by their own global basing and logistics. If one fleet is being attacked, there is likely to be a second fleet at port ready to act as support and/or relief. That's what I meant with matching an opponent's commitment with one's own.

Do not mistaken China's advantage in a conflict near its shores as one derived from concentrating its forces. That is simply a natural advantage conferred by geographic proximity. Fighting a naval conflict off your own shores means both being able to better and more effectively leverage your own air force, artillery, SIGINT, logistics, etc, and being able to more quickly replenish your fighting strength (interestingly, one counter the US could employ against that advantage is by squeezing China's access to resources, which is why this point of protecting one's SLOCs persists).

The word "concentrated" and "dispersed" is also somewhat meaningless in this discussion simply because it's not simply about what proportion of your forces get distributed where, but the size of your forces at any one location vs your opponent. If the US forward deployed four fleets and half their air force to East Asia, with the rest implementing a global blockade on China, while China only had three fleets and they were all at home, the US might be less concentrated, but it wouldn't matter because their fighting strength would still be greater, everywhere. This is the logic driving China's modernization, the logic driving them to adopt a much bigger blue water navy, and the logic that suggests China will forward deploy to protect their SLOCs. China doesn't need to match the US's strength globally, but it does need to build a navy that's big and strong enough to reliably and persistently challenge any strategy an opponent might pursue and make it less attractive, which also means establishing all the basing and logistics necessary to maintain that strength. That's what forward deployment is ultimately about, and that's where the logic of deterrence is derived from.

Finally, one needs to keep in mind that China will need to forward deploy not just to deter the US, but also to check against political conflicts that might occur in its country's of interest (potentially caused by its own presence in that country). If China's dependence on imported resources continue, this very quickly becomes a reality that China will have to be prepared for. This goes back to what I said days earlier about how countries don't want to become empires, but are driven in that direction by their needs.

As for a hypothetical conflict with Japan, if the US really wanted to, even a decade from now, it wouldn't need any support from any other country to assert absolute dominance. Let's not pretend that even a decade from now China will be at all ready to take on the full might of the USN. Everything China is doing militarily right now is meant to affect the politics of a conflict before it begins to make Washington think twice about going to war with China. It's not meant to outright defeat the USN. If you're deriving your scenarios from the notion that China will have power parity with the US, you're going to have to wait many decades for that military power balance to shift.
 
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shen

Senior Member
Depending on the scale and type of conflict, having trade relationships with other countries is not immunity to having those relationships disrupted. As for China having no major protectorates and oversea bases, if China's dependence on raw materials from abroad continues its trajectory, those will change.

of course not, one can never depend on rational action on the part of your opponents. but trade relationships can be maintained without expanding a regional conflict into a global war. suddenly, all Chinese exports can go through Hong Kong. If Hong Kong exports are interdicted, South Korean and Taiwanese exports suddenly surge. And one of those central Asian republics suddenly becomes a major exporter of consumer goods to Europe. trade will find a way. much quicker than unilateral military actions.

We can nitpick the specifics of WWI, but the main reason why I brought it up was to point out how global interconnected-ness and trade in not a guarantee against global conflict. There's more than one way to skin a cat, just as there's more than one way for a global conflict to emerge in an interdependent world.

global conflict is made more likely by large military alliances. world peace is more likely be disrupted by special interests made rich by such alliances.


Before I get into the actual naval combat aspect of this reply, let me first get the security IR out of the way. Southeast Asia and India don't need China establishing a naval presence in the Indian Ocean to push them towards the US. With SEA, it's already happening because of the island disputes in the South China Sea. With India, it's already happening because India has always felt threatened by China. China expanding its naval presence into the Indian Ocean would not exacerbate these relationships anymore than if they simply grew in military strength without going into the Indian Ocean. Nor does establishing bases in the Indian Ocean worsen China's prospects at being able to improve its relations with those countries. That part of international relations rest on factors that largely lie outside of how big and strong your military is or where it's being placed. (Negative reaction to another military is a result of bad relationships. The presence of that military is not the cause of the bad relationship).

I disagree. Seeing foreign soldiers in your own country goes a long way in breeding resentment. American base in Saudi Arabia is the reason why 9/11 happened, is the reason why thousands of American soldiers lost their lives in meaningless wars during the past decade. American global base network is its greatest weakness. You mentioned in the 055 thread that Chinese culture is not immune to imperialism but perhaps not global imperialism. I agree. Chinese core interests are all in its immediate neighborhood. China has no interest, no capability, no historic inclination to project its military powers worldwide. China doesn't need nor should it build foreign bases. Over the past decade, Chinese interests have been advanced through mutually beneficial trade, not through establishing military protectorates worldwide. That trend should continue. In the news recently, Malaysia played down the significance of a PLAN exercise in SCS despite the best efforts of Western media to stir up tension. That's because Malaysia recognize the importance of peaceful economic interaction with China and obviously because China doesn't have military bases close to Malaysia. China doesn't want to nor does it have the ability to militarily interfere in whatever regional disputes Malaysia may have with its neighbor. That's the pattern China should follow worldwide.

If you don't have any forward deployment of your navy to protect your SLOCs, there's nothing you can do if another power decides to set up blockades and check points along your major trade routes. You can't even send your navy to those point to contest a blockade as it's being threatened because you don't have the basing and logistics to support such an effort. If you tried without the basing and logistics support it would end in a fools errand and likely very swift defeat. Keep in mind it's not as simple as sending some ships to a location and starting a fight. Any effort to impose a blockade by a power like the US comes with serious support and relief assets backed by their own global basing and logistics. If one fleet is being attacked, there is likely to be a second fleet at port ready to act as support and/or relief. That's what I meant with matching an opponent's commitment with one's own.

To protect its SLOC militarily worldwide, China would need to go down the same path of imperial overreach as the United States. One PLAN CVBG in the Indian Ocean would not be enough to protect Chinese SLOC. It was just be a target. PLAN should focus on Chinese core interests closer to home. US can go on playing as the world's policeman, just don't mess with China on its own turf.

Do not mistaken China's advantage in a conflict near its shores as one derived from concentrating its forces. That is simply a natural advantage conferred by geographic proximity. Fighting a naval conflict off your own shores means both being able to better and more effectively leverage your own air force, artillery, SIGINT, logistics, etc, and being able to more quickly replenish your fighting strength (interestingly, one counter the US could employ against that advantage is by squeezing China's access to resources, which is why this point of protecting one's SLOCs persists).

The word "concentrated" and "dispersed" is also somewhat meaningless in this discussion simply because it's not simply about what proportion of your forces get distributed where, but the size of your forces at any one location vs your opponent. If the US forward deployed four fleets and half their air force to East Asia, with the rest implementing a global blockade on China, while China only had three fleets and they were all at home, the US might be less concentrated, but it wouldn't matter because their fighting strength would still be greater, everywhere. This is the logic driving China's modernization, the logic driving them to adopt a much bigger blue water navy, and the logic that suggests China will forward deploy to protect their SLOCs. China doesn't need to match the US's strength globally, but it does need to build a navy that's big and strong enough to reliably and persistently challenge any strategy an opponent might pursue and make it less attractive, which also means establishing all the basing and logistics necessary to maintain that strength. That's what forward deployment is ultimately about, and that's where the logic of deterrence is derived from.

Chinese deterrence is greatest when its military assets are focused on protecting its core interests, all of which are close to home. There is no deterrence when PLAN combat assets are scattered and can be defeated individually. PLAN should take advantage of the geographic and strategic advantages you mentioned by limiting its goal to protecting its core interests.

Finally, one needs to keep in mind that China will need to forward deploy not just to deter the US, but also to check against political conflicts that might occur in its country's of interest (potentially caused by its own presence in that country). If China's dependence on imported resources continue, this very quickly becomes a reality that China will have to be prepared for. This goes back to what I said days earlier about how countries don't want to become empires, but are driven in that direction by their needs.

I agree some degree limited forward PLAN deployment is necessary. Which is why I proposed a limited PLAN East Africa station ship that's flexible enough to fulfill a variety of humanitarian and low intensity roles. But is not so heavily armed as to threaten local countries. It should have hello kitty painted on its sides, cruising the East Africa station, providing healthcare for the local people, fight pirates and collective intelligence at the same time.

As for a hypothetical conflict with Japan, if the US really wanted to, even a decade from now, it wouldn't need any support from any other country to assert absolute dominance. Let's not pretend that even a decade from now China will be at all ready to take on the full might of the USN. Everything China is doing militarily right now is meant to affect the politics of a conflict before it begins to make Washington think twice about going to war with China. It's not meant to outright defeat the USN. If you're deriving your scenarios from the notion that China will have power parity with the US, you're going to have to wait many decades for that military power balance to shift.

Of course China shouldn't seek a open military conflict with the US. US should be allowed into a comfortable retirement like past empire such as GB has. Just don't try to bully China on its own turf.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
of course not, one can never depend on rational action on the part of your opponents. but trade relationships can be maintained without expanding a regional conflict into a global war. suddenly, all Chinese exports can go through Hong Kong. If Hong Kong exports are interdicted, South Korean and Taiwanese exports suddenly surge. And one of those central Asian republics suddenly becomes a major exporter of consumer goods to Europe. trade will find a way. much quicker than unilateral military actions.
You're assuming that other countries won't cooperate with such a blockade, but they very well may, especially if they're US allies. We can't presume to know for sure what scenario would trigger the US and China to go to war, but whatever that scenario is it will likely force the rest of the world to take sides, and in fact may even be a case where either the China or the US are second parties.

global conflict is made more likely by large military alliances. world peace is more likely be disrupted by special interests made rich by such alliances.
Sometimes large alliances are not the preceding cause but the antecedent effect of globalized conflicts. There are other more significant factors to the seeding of global conflict than special interests and degrees of military alliances. To be clear, it doesn't take the conflict to start off globally for it to expand into something global. A choice to blockade China could very well stem from a more regional conflict.

I disagree. Seeing foreign soldiers in your own country goes a long way in breeding resentment. American base in Saudi Arabia is the reason why 9/11 happened, is the reason why thousands of American soldiers lost their lives in meaningless wars during the past decade. American global base network is its greatest weakness. You mentioned in the 055 thread that Chinese culture is not immune to imperialism but perhaps not global imperialism. I agree. Chinese core interests are all in its immediate neighborhood. China has no interest, no capability, no historic inclination to project its military powers worldwide. China doesn't need nor should it build foreign bases. Over the past decade, Chinese interests have been advanced through mutually beneficial trade, not through establishing military protectorates worldwide. That trend should continue. In the news recently, Malaysia played down the significance of a PLAN exercise in SCS despite the best efforts of Western media to stir up tension. That's because Malaysia recognize the importance of peaceful economic interaction with China and obviously because China doesn't have military bases close to Malaysia. China doesn't want to nor does it have the ability to militarily interfere in whatever regional disputes Malaysia may have with its neighbor. That's the pattern China should follow worldwide.
Who said China would be putting its soldiers in India and Southeast Asia? More likely it would be a country like Sri Lanka or Pakistan, or Nigeria. Your troops don't seed resentment if your presence isn't seen as an occupation (the US and WWII Europe). Many countries that China could base in might even prefer having a Chinese presence. India doesn't have very good relations with most of its South Asian neighbors.

Your narrative about how China advances its interests sounds much like another country's earlier in the 20th century. That was precisely how the US advanced its interests until the Cold War, and until it needed more energy than it could produce on its own. Like I said earlier, countries may be forced to internationalize their military presence to preserve other interests they become dependent on. Given the reasons behind China's trade activities abroad, it's not hard to see how regional imperialism can become global imperialism. It's nice to believe that a country can simply maintain its interests abroad without getting sucked into local and regional politics far outside their borders, but international relations usually aren't so simple or ideal. What happens when a country you've invested billions in teeters on Civil War because the haves want you to stay and the have nots think you're making the problem worse? There are countless permutations of these sorts of problems that come with dependency on other countries for resources.

As for China-Malay relations, I'm pretty it's a strategy on China's part to divide consensus in ASEAN and not simply some push for peaceful interactions. On Malaysia's part, it probably sees a better chance of benefiting from the resources in the disputed territory by cooperating with China than by competing with it, and on China's part Malaysia, Brunei, and Indonesia are the three countries in ASEAN involved in the disputes that have good relations with China and don't lean towards the US. If China reaches out to a country it has strong relationships with that delegitimizes the complaints of the Philippines and Vietnam and destroys the possibility that ASEAN will reach a consensus against it, which then allows China to act more aggressively against those two countries to settle under China's terms.

To protect its SLOC militarily worldwide, China would need to go down the same path of imperial overreach as the United States. One PLAN CVBG in the Indian Ocean would not be enough to protect Chinese SLOC. It was just be a target. PLAN should focus on Chinese core interests closer to home. US can go on playing as the world's policeman, just don't mess with China on its own turf.

The US didn't want to become an imperial power either (and I would say it still doesn't quite fit the bill of one), and yet here we are. Like I said in the other thread, structural forces of international political economy have a powerful say in what kind of power a country becomes. If China becomes a world police, that won't be because it wanted to, but needed to. Personally, I don't think it will ever get that far, but we can't ignore how much China is investing abroad and how much resource dependency it is building in those countries either. That will have a significant impact.

Also, the point isn't to put on CVBG in the Indian Ocean, but to have bases in the Indian Ocean that can support multiple battle groups. You could have one battle group or CVG occupy that space in peace time and then allocate more if the need arises. That's what all navies that operate globally do. Forward deployment is not about how much military strength you allocate to different areas, but how much military strength your military infrastructure can support.

Chinese deterrence is greatest when its military assets are focused on protecting its core interests, all of which are close to home. There is no deterrence when PLAN combat assets are scattered and can be defeated individually. PLAN should take advantage of the geographic and strategic advantages you mentioned by limiting its goal to protecting its core interests.
The bolded portion is where things are starting to change. The problem is that China fundamentally cannot limit its dependence on global trade if it wants the kind of high intensity developed economy is is working towards because it has relatively poor resource endowments. Unless China makes a decision to change the kind of economy it wants to be, it's impossible for China to keep its core interests close to home. China's core interests are becoming those interests abroad.

I agree some degree limited forward PLAN deployment is necessary. Which is why I proposed a limited PLAN East Africa station ship that's flexible enough to fulfill a variety of humanitarian and low intensity roles. But is not so heavily armed as to threaten local countries. It should have hello kitty painted on its sides, cruising the East Africa station, providing healthcare for the local people, fight pirates and collective intelligence at the same time.
This goes back to the problem I cited earlier about what happens when instability occurs in a country you have a relationship with, perhaps partially caused by your presence (you don't need a military for that to happen). It also makes little sense to have a presence in somewhere like East Africa and not have a chain of bases and logistical support along the routes going back to China. That more than anything would cause the fragmentation you were concerned about.


Of course China shouldn't seek a open military conflict with the US. US should be allowed into a comfortable retirement like past empire such as GB has. Just don't try to bully China on its own turf.

I'm not sure the US will even retire at all. The narrative that the US is in decline is overstated.

Anyways, the concern for China is that if there is a conflict between the two (say because the US is "bullying" China in its own turf), that a soft target is their dependence on global trade to maintain their economy (and as a consequence their fighting strength). So long as those soft spots exist, they are going to be targeted, unless they are hardened. Now, in the keypub thread about "Offshore Control" I pointed out that in the event that China could not contest a blockade, it could pursue less efficient offsets and even ration their resources domestically to keep their war machine going, so China wouldn't be totally screwed. It could even hold out for quite a while, perhaps even to win the war effort. However, that doesn't mean that, given that China is becoming increasingly vulnerable due to resource trade dependence, they shouldn't make preparations in the event that their SLOCs are targeted. As I've said many times already, the PLA's job is to prepare for the worst case scenarios.
 
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Rutim

Banned Idiot
a good new article on the danger of security alliance.

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Another article which misses the point why Abe wants to change 'pacifist' constitution and why US would love to see that. Not to mention it doesn't mention that no matter what will be done PRC will continue it's military equpiment modernisation and grow in numbers of modern warfare no matter what US, Japan, India or whoever else will do about that, if they will have peaceful relations or more twisted like right now.

I would recomend everyone to keep track with what US or Japan has in their minds regarding Chinese military to read pieces or watch some videos with Toshi Yoshihara as he's probably most competent civilian talking about those matters on the American side of Pacific Ocean.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Another article which misses the point why Abe wants to change 'pacifist' constitution and why US would love to see that. Not to mention it doesn't mention that no matter what will be done PRC will continue it's military equpiment modernisation and grow in numbers of modern warfare no matter what US, Japan, India or whoever else will do about that, if they will have peaceful relations or more twisted like right now.

I would recomend everyone to keep track with what US or Japan has in their minds regarding Chinese military to read pieces or watch some videos with Toshi Yoshihara as he's probably most competent civilian talking about those matters on the American side of Pacific Ocean.

Actually, the State Department is quietly frustrated with Abe. Assuming that the US wants Japan to militarize would be misunderstanding the security politics of East Asia.
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
Actually, the State Department is quietly frustrated with Abe. Assuming that the US wants Japan to militarize would be misunderstanding the security politics of East Asia.
Hypothetical situation: North Korea attacked US Navy vessel. What Japanese SDF can do to help US Navy?
 
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