Myanmar/Burma civil conflict

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's like thinking every cartel member and slave farmer/fentanyl cook is American citizen lol
We are talking about people forced to conduct telecom scams in the Chinese language. The overwhelming majority of Chinese speakers in the world are PRC citizens. Of course, there are Chinese speakers who are not PRC citizens and there are indeed some reports of Taiwanese and Malaysian Chinese victims, but my guess is that they make up only a small minority of the human trafficking victims.

China would kind of notice and also just straight up attack if vast areas were depopulated.
Perhaps my previous post was not worded clearly. These scammers did NOT go into China and grab tens of thousands of PRC citizens from PRC territory. The human trafficking victims come from all over China and were lured or tricked into voluntarily travelling to Myanmar, Thailand, or some other location in SE Asia where they were kidnapped.

500 000 cash reward for a guy who if what you're saying is 1/10 true commit even bigger attack than Al aqsa flood on China would be hilariously low.
The 500,000 yuan rewards were on Ming Xuechang and other members of the Ming family of Kokang. The Ming family only ran 1 of the 1,000+ scam centers in Myanmar. By no means were they any sort of mastermind for all the human trafficking in Myanmar. They weren't even that important in Kokang as the Ming family was only the fifth most powerful family in Kokang.

What is extraordinary about the warrants and rewards on the Ming family is that they were issued by the municipal police department of Wenzhou city in Zhejiang province, over 2,000km away from Myanmar. AFAIK, local municipal police departments in China don't often issue warrants and rewards for the arrests of foreign government officials and their family members. It is even more extraordinary that a couple of weeks later, the family members and the dead body of the wanted foreign government official were simply handed to China by that foreign government without any fuss. IMO, this suggests that the stories going around about the Ming family murdering a large number of Chinese citizens that tried to escape from their scam center, including several undercover Chinese cops, is likely to be true. The undercover Chinese cops, as well as some of the other victims, are likely from Wenzhou, which would explain why it was the municipal police department of Wenzhou that issued the arrest warrants and rewards on the Ming family.

In the latest crackdown, they brought back/caught thousands, that's total including fighters, underbosses etc.
Note that the scam centers are all over Myanmar. The ones in Kokang make up only a small fraction of the total. According to Chinese internet discussions, the largest group of scam centers are actually located in the Karen ethnic areas around Myanmar's border with Thailand, where China has little direct influence.

Also note that the 10/20 incident was said to have happened when the captives at the Ming family site were being moved to other sites far from the Chinese border due to pressure from the Chinese government to shutdown the scam centers in Kokang. Other scam centers in Kokang were likely doing the same thing around the same time period. In other words, the thousands of people being handed over from Kokang now are only what still remains in Kokang after many have been transferred out of Kokang already.

This is just triads 3.0, being majority/plurality ethnic Chinese members stirring up shit in SEA countries, but like 90% of ethnic Chinese =/= China's responsibility.
Even if only 10% of the 100,000+ human trafficking victims are PRC citizens (I doubt the percentage is actually that low), that's still 10,000+ PRC victims. Furthermore, even if all the victims are only ethnic Chinese and not PRC citizens, China is still completely justified to take action IMO, including actions that violate Myanmar's sovereignty.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
We are talking about people forced to conduct telecom scams in the Chinese language. The overwhelming majority of Chinese speakers in the world are PRC citizens. Of course, there are Chinese speakers who are not PRC citizens and there are indeed some reports of Taiwanese and Malaysian Chinese victims, but my guess is that they make up only a small minority of the human trafficking victims.
What? They're not. There's a massive amount of Chinese speakers in SEA, descendants of defeated civil war factions and explorers even further back.

As evidenced by MNDAA having full Chinese language support and having whole media channels in China, like Russians have on telegram... Their ability to speak an international language doesn't make them all Chinese citizens... Much less PRC citizens.
Perhaps my previous post was not worded clearly. These scammers did NOT go into China and grab tens of thousands of PRC citizens from PRC territory. The human trafficking victims come from all over China and were lured or tricked into voluntarily travelling to Myanmar, Thailand, or some other location in SE Asia where they were kidnapped.


The 500,000 yuan rewards were on Ming Xuechang and other members of the Ming family of Kokang. The Ming family only ran 1 of the 1,000+ scam centers in Myanmar. By no means were they any sort of mastermind for all the human trafficking in Myanmar. They weren't even that important in Kokang as the Ming family was only the fifth most powerful family in Kokang.

What is extraordinary about the warrants and rewards on the Ming family is that they were issued by the municipal police department of Wenzhou city in Zhejiang province, over 2,000km away from Myanmar. AFAIK, local municipal police departments in China don't often issue warrants and rewards for the arrests of foreign government officials and their family members. It is even more extraordinary that a couple of weeks later, the family members and the dead body of the wanted foreign government official were simply handed to China by that foreign government without any fuss. IMO, this suggests that the stories going around about the Ming family murdering a large number of Chinese citizens that tried to escape from their scam center, including several undercover Chinese cops, is likely to be true. The undercover Chinese cops, as well as some of the other victims, are likely from Wenzhou, which would explain why it was the municipal police department of Wenzhou that issued the arrest warrants and rewards on the Ming family.


Note that the scam centers are all over Myanmar. The ones in Kokang make up only a small fraction of the total. According to Chinese internet discussions, the largest group of scam centers are actually located in the Karen ethnic areas around Myanmar's border with Thailand, where China has little direct influence.

Also note that the 10/20 incident was said to have happened when the captives at the Ming family site were being moved to other sites far from the Chinese border due to pressure from the Chinese government to shutdown the scam centers in Kokang. Other scam centers in Kokang were likely doing the same thing around the same time period. In other words, the thousands of people being handed over from Kokang now are only what still remains in Kokang after many have been transferred out of Kokang already.


Even if only 10% of the 100,000+ human trafficking victims are PRC citizens (I doubt the percentage is actually that low), that's still 10,000+ PRC victims.
There's perhaps 100k-200k~ guerillas in Myanmar total. Where are the supposed disappeared people? Nobody exists in a vacuum. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

You're telling me it's easier for insurgents in flip flops to find a vacationing citizen from the richest country in the area besides Japan and most likely to pursue them, feed and house their relative high maintenence fee, vs just forcibly recruiting a local burmese peasant, who will happily type in Chinese in exchange for 3 shitty meals?

There's maybe a few hundreds over the years. What sparked a response from China was the criminals killing just a few cops, if there were hundreds of thousands there, nobody would give a shit about the lives of some cops and the PLA would already be razing any bigger settlement they can find.
Furthermore, even if all the victims are only ethnic Chinese and not PRC citizens, China is still completely justified to take action IMO, including actions that violate Myanmar's sovereignty.
China has the right and mandate to ensure safety and cooperation across the third world and beyond, we don't need to invent our own "Katyn" or "Saddam incubators" to justify such demands.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Chinese citizens in Myamar are scammers, not "victims"

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BEIJING, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Myanmar authorities have handed over 31,000 telecom fraud suspects to China since law enforcement officers from both countries launched a crackdown on online scams in September, Chinese authorities said on Tuesday.

The suspects included 63 "financiers" and ring-leaders of crime syndicates that have cheated Chinese citizens of large sums of money, the Ministry of Public Security said in a statement.
 
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TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
Chinese citizens in Myamar are scammers, not "victims"

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BEIJING, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Myanmar authorities have handed over 31,000 telecom fraud suspects to China since law enforcement officers from both countries launched a crackdown on online scams in September, Chinese authorities said on Tuesday.

The suspects included 63 "financiers" and ring-leaders of crime syndicates that have cheated Chinese citizens of large sums of money, the Ministry of Public Security said in a statement.
That is two army division sized scammer!
 

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese citizens in Myamar are scammers, not "victims"

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They can be both. Many of the low level scammers may have went to these places knowing full well that they will be conducting telecom scams, but they went there thinking they will be highly paid for that work and they certainly did not know that they will actually be working as slaves who are unable to quit or leave.

Here's the video of members of the various Kokang "great families" that were taken into Chinese government custody reading a prepared message calling on their families to free the Chinese held in their scam centers. The message states that should any harm fall to the Chinese in the scam centers, the Chinese government will exact that blood debt from the Kokang "great families".
 
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Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
They can be both. Many of the low level scammers may have went to these places knowing full well that they will be conducting telecom scams, but they went there thinking they will be highly paid and they certainly did not know that they will actually be slaves who are unable to quit or leave.

Here's the video of members of the various Kokang "great families" that were taken into Chinese government custody reading a prepared message calling on their families to free the Chinese held in their scam centers. The message states that should any harm fall to the Chinese in the scam centers, the Chinese government will exact that blood debt from the Kokang "great families".
Fun fact: two out of these three characters were apprehended in China because they were tricked into participating in a basketball competition and a marathon held in Yunnan, and while there the police closed in on them.

Would've loved to be a fly on the wall at those events, police probably went up and said something like "got scammed innit?"
 

tygyg1111

Senior Member
Registered Member
Fun fact: two out of these three characters were apprehended in China because they were tricked into participating in a basketball competition and a marathon held in Yunnan, and while there the police closed in on them.

Would've loved to be a fly on the wall at those events, police probably went up and said something like "got scammed innit?"
Q: What are the bars for?
A: It's a cage basketball match, dummy
 

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
The difference of India from all other Chinese neighbours is that India based its claim on southern Tibet on the "treaty" between British Raj and Tibaten government without Qing dynasty's involvment and consent. China reject that "treaty" being valid at all.

According to treaty between Qing and Britain, Tibet does not have authority over matters with foreign states. Therefor, Qing rejected the legality of the border agreement. From China's perspective, the border with India is never settled. This means that China can trade land with India including ceding southern Tibet on the condition that India acknowledge the invalidity of the "treaty" between British Raj and Tibetan local government.

However, India assumes to be the successor state to British Raj instead of being part of British Raj that break free. As a succesor state India must insist on the validity of that "treaty" which China won't accept. If India accept China's position, the treaty is invalidy, it also have to give up a lot of claims to Bangladish and Myanmar whose lands were taken away and put into India during the British rule.

The deadlock essentially boiled down to the question of "What is India" from a legal perspective. China sees Republic of India as new creation by the British partition, not a successor state of British empire, therefor India's border with China is the business between China and Britain therefor never legally settled. After British departure, anything that was not agreed between China and Britain is open issue.

All other Chinese neighbours have various treaties that were signed between Qing dynasty or ROC regardless gains or loss, fair or not. The issues were only about exactly how the line on the ground is measured and marked. There is no dispute of the treaties themselves.
Interesting. You explained the legql technicalities i wasnt aware of, much better than just saying indian bad faith/mindset like some member here.
Despite all this, i think we have to be realistic as well? What is the way forward for both countries? Finding a middle ground and making concessions to resolve the border issues once and for all or continuing with thos issue forever? Afterall, they will need to bith come to an understanding to resolve this or the only alternative is fighting another bloody war, which im not sure either side wants to engage in anyway.
I think China should have kept Arunachal pradesh/South Tibet after the 1962 war and then déclare ceasefire and negotiate from.position of strength, even if it meant giving up 1/3rd of South Tibet in return for recognition of that settlement as the permanent border . Would have been more acceptable for both sides than pulling out back and ceeding back all the gained territory to India after the war whoch makes it difficult to ever get it bacn without another war.
 
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