Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

What the 747 has done for several years will progress to other platforms, both on the ground and in space. The technology is being proven and advancing. My point is simply that as China advances with its ballistic missile weapons, others like the US (and especially the US) are advancing with defenses against them.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

plawolf said:

Good luck getting a 747 within a few hundred miles of a PLA ballistic missile launch site.

Even if they were launching them from beaches, the idea that something like a 747 could hope to get within a few hundred miles of the mainland coast in times of war is silly.

Boost stage interception would only work against a small, and hopelessly outclassed foe, like North Korea. Boost stage interception would probably be unreliable against someone even like Iran or Pakistan, simply because of the their considerably larger land mass. Even if you achieve complete air dominance and can have 747s anywhere in their air space you want, you will still not have enough to provide 24/7 coverage of the entire country.

What more, fairly simply measures that can be easily and cheaply applied could also significantly reduce the effectiveness of lasers against a missile. Adding a slight spin to the missile would make it impossible to focus the laser energy on one spot, and a lick of simply reflective silver paint will also greatly reduce the effectiveness of a laser weapon aimed at it with minimal impact on missile performance.

Click to expand...

Uh, I wouldn't think so.

Currently, the best SAMs China has are reproduced Russian S-300s which they've upgraded and given some designation to which I've forgot.

The best missile available for service with the S-300 at this moment has a range of 200 km. This would mean there would be a large stand off distance between that 747 and that PLA SAM site. Only method around this are Seabased SAMs, which is possible with China's first true Air-defense destroyer, the Type 052C? I think. But even with the Type 052C, China only has 2 of them completed and 4 building. Navy v Navy, I doubt they could hold up to a full on USN attack.

I don't think you understand how the Airborne laser exactly works. The thing is not like a laser range finder, it barely needs a second to detonate a warhead. Spinning won't work unless it's spinning faster than it's flying.

And Reflective paint is actually very expensive.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

IronsightSniper said:

Uh, I wouldn't think so.

Currently, the best SAMs China has are reproduced Russian S-300s which they've upgraded and given some designation to which I've forgot.

The best missile available for service with the S-300 at this moment has a range of 200 km. This would mean there would be a large stand off distance between that 747 and that PLA SAM site. Only method around this are Seabased SAMs, which is possible with China's first true Air-defense destroyer, the Type 052C? I think. But even with the Type 052C, China only has 2 of them completed and 4 building. Navy v Navy, I doubt they could hold up to a full on USN attack.

I don't think you understand how the Airborne laser exactly works. The thing is not like a laser range finder, it barely needs a second to detonate a warhead. Spinning won't work unless it's spinning faster than it's flying.

And Reflective paint is actually very expensive.

Click to expand...

Have you actually watched the video? The laser took more than a few seconds to destroy the target.

Maneuovering is a better strategy than spinning since there's a wider area of uncertainty. The missile can be programmed to maneuver wildly once sensors on its surface detect a certain rise in temperature.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Quickie said:

Have you actually watched the video? The laser took more than a few seconds to destroy the target.

Maneuovering is a better strategy than spinning since there's a wider area of uncertainty. The missile can be programmed to maneuver wildly once sensors on its surface detect a certain rise in temperature.

Click to expand...

The laser is capable of following.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Quickie said:

The missile can be programmed to maneuver wildly once sensors on its surface detect a certain rise in temperature.

Click to expand...

Wild manuevering at those speeds would not be recommended.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

What the 747 has done for several years will progress to other platforms, both on the ground and in space. The technology is being proven and advancing. My point is simply that as China advances with its ballistic missile weapons, others like the US (and especially the US) are advancing with defenses against them.

Click to expand...

Ofcourse, that's totally expected as both sides advancing in parallel. I actually welcome such development as that's probably going to drive humanity science and technology forward! Let's just hope it doesn't get use that's all... (like in the cold war. Technology was driven to a new height, but no real conflict broke out)

Secondly, the question here is the potential growth of using high energy weapon against BM.
I think laser/high energy beam weapons has the unfortunate property of being not physical/kinetic. It can get dissipated easily due to atmospheric conditions, or even surface properties of BM itself.
What happen if you install laser reflectors (the same one that laser beam bounce around in before shooting out) as tiles on BM?? Even better if the tile reflectors can be controlled in some way, it could even bounce back the laser beam back to where it came from....

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Asymptote said:

Ofcourse, that's totally expected as both sides advancing in parallel. I actually welcome such development as that's probably going to drive humanity science and technology forward! Let's just hope it doesn't get use that's all... (like in the cold war. Technology was driven to a new height, but no real conflict broke out)
The question here is the potential growth of using high energy weapon against BM.
I think laser/high energy beam weapons has the unfortunate property of being not physical/kinetic. It can get dissipated easily due to atmospheric conditions, or even surface property of BM itself.
What happen if you install laser reflectors (the same one that laser beam bounce around in before shooting out) as tiles on BM?? Even better if the tile reflectors can be controlled in some way, it could even bounce back the laser beam back to where it came from....

Click to expand...

Measure-counter measure will continue. But everything added to the BM will add weight and reduce its capabilities. As the power available to the beam, and as different beams are created, they will over come (and indeed already are) the impact of atmospheric conditions) and will add mor epower to allow for a much hotter burn. The beam does not necessarily have to destroy the missile either, just impact it enough to cause it to destroy itself.

It will be a new technology race...but my point is, particularly for the so called (and IMHO to this date at lease a Sun Tsu deception) Carrier killer, the US has already demonstrated technology and fielded it that can intercept such a missile either kinteically, proximity wise, or laser...and this missile in question has not undergone a single verifiable operational test.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Quickie said:

Have you actually watched the video? The laser took more than a few seconds to destroy the target.

Maneuovering is a better strategy than spinning since there's a wider area of uncertainty. The missile can be programmed to maneuver wildly once sensors on its surface detect a certain rise in temperature.

Click to expand...

Evasive maneuvering is a losing game, especially at the boost phase. The BM will lose its fuel quickly and screw up its own trajectory. Plus for the laser - once it acquire the target, it only need to move very little to follow missile. Its like a guy being targeted by a sniper - he can run left and run right and do all kinds of evasive maneuvers, but the sniper only need to shift his gun sight mere few inches to follow his movement, and the sniper can even fire a few shots to get the guy running wildly until he gets tired, and then take his kill shot.

Also, like Jeff said before, the laser only need to create "critical impact" on the missile body - the missile will destroy itself due to the force of ascent/descent. This is similar to the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster - all it needs is a little crack in the thermal 'armor' (loss of thermal tiles due to foam strike), and the problem will escalate until total destruction occur.

A better strategy would be to take out the sniper all together. If the Airborne Laser Testbed is any indication - it means China must also do parallel development in this area. And since it has to be house on a 747 - it will have limited energy source - compare to a ground based station where it will have almost unlimited energy source. China's defence would then be to have ground based stations where it can shoot down the 747 when it comes into firing range. Since ground based stations will have almost unlimited energy source, it can fire a far more powerful beam, and at longer range, which will certainly out range the 747 due to the limitation of energy storage on-board. Basically, this is like having a desktop computer that plugs into the wall socket versus a laptop computer that runs on battery, the laptop will simply run out of juice after a few hours with limited use, and because it is package for mobile form factors (weight, volume) its performance will be severely limited compare to a desktop.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

Measure-counter measure will continue. But everything added to the BM will add weight and reduce its capabilities. As the power available to the beam, and as different beams are created, they will over come (and indeed already are) the impact of atmospheric conditions) and will add mor epower to allow for a much hotter burn. The beam does not necessarily have to destroy the missile either, just impact it enough to cause it to destroy itself.

Click to expand...

Of-course, as you put more counter measures on the BM itself, weight will increase. That's also expected.
But like I said before, direct energy weapon has the unfortunate properties of losing energy when face with such natural phenomenas such as blooming and scattering. There are also the possibility of evaporative target materials on the BM as counter measure.

It will be a new technology race...but my point is, particularly for the so called (and IMHO to this date at lease a Sun Tsu deception) Carrier killer, the US has already demonstrated technology and fielded it that can intercept such a missile either kinteically, proximity wise, or laser...and this missile in question has not undergone a single verifiable operational test.

Click to expand...

Then, I don't understand why would Pentagon say the DF-21D ASBM is operational, and that its a credible threat? Maybe there is no DF-21D ASBM after all! Since there is no official acknowledgment from Chinese government of its existence! That means, the Pentagon made up the threat, to get more funding. But that's a self-defeating maneuver because Pentagon would have to demonstrate this "hypothetical made-up" Chinese weapon is credible threat, which in turn DOES become a credible threat because Pentagon demonstrate it is credible. LOL.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

IronsightSniper said:

The laser is capable of following.

Click to expand...

I'm sure it can. The problem is the laser is required to hit the missile at the same spot for a few seconds. This would be very difficult if the missile is maneuvering and spinning, however slightly. The target in the video wasn't maneuvering and it was not known how far the target is. I suspect tracking and actually hitting close enough to a spot would be a problem if the target is maneuvering and at a far enough distance.