Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Asymptote said:
Evasive maneuvering is a losing game, especially at the boost phase. The BM will lose its fuel quickly and screw up its own trajectory. Plus for the laser - once it acquire the target, it only need to move very little to follow missile. Its like a guy being targeted by a sniper - he can run left and run right and do all kinds of evasive maneuvers, but the sniper only need to shift his gun sight mere few inches to follow his movement, and the sniper can even fire a few shots to get the guy running wildly until he gets tired, and then take his kill shot.

A better strategy would be to take out the sniper all together. If the Airborne Laser Testbed is any indication - it means China must also do parallel development in this area. And since it has to be house on a 747 - it will have limited energy source - compare to a ground based station where it will have almost unlimited energy source. China's defence would then be to have ground based stations where it can shoot down the 747 when it comes into firing range. Since ground based stations will have almost unlimited energy source, it can fire a far more powerful beam, and at longer range, which will certainly out range the 747 due to the limitation of energy storage on-board. Basically, this is like having a desktop computer that plugs into the wall socket vs a laptop computer that runs on battery, the laptop will simply run out of juice after a few hours with limited use, and because its package for mobile form factors (weight, volume) its performance will be severely limited compare to a desktop.
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I wasn't really thinking about BM at early boosting phase but was referring to SAM which can maneuver wildly immediately after launch.

As to the ability of the laser to follow the target, the following is my reply to ironsightsniper.

" The problem is the laser is required to hit the missile at the same spot for a few seconds. This would be very difficult if the missile is maneuvering and spinning, however slightly. The target in the video wasn't maneuvering and it was not known how far the target is. I suspect tracking and actually hitting close enough to a spot would be a problem if the target is maneuvering and at a far enough distance. "
 
Asymptote

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Actually, this Airborne Laser Testbed reminds me of the so called "Star war program" - Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). It looks like this program is still on going even though it got "dissolved" (or renamed) 17 years ago.

So, the Airborne Laser Testbed, will probably eventually evolved into "Satellite Laser Testbed", and that's a eventuality that China has to put into its own calculation.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Asymptote said:
Of-course, as you put more counter measures on the BM itself, weight will increase. That's also expected.
But like I said before, direct energy weapon has the unfortunate properties of losing energy when face with such natural phenomenas such as blooming and scattering. There are also the possibility of evaporative target materials on the BM as counter measure.

Then, I don't understand why would Pentagon say the DF-21D ASBM is operational
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To my knowledge, the Pentagon and its reps have never said it was "operational". Just that it was being researched and tested and could pose a threat, and asking why the PRC would need such a weapon specifically targeting carriers...using it as a political manuever.

Asymptote said:
Maybe there is no DF-21D ASBM after all! Since there is no official acknowledgment from Chinese government of its existence! That means, the Pentagon made up the threat, to get more funding. But that's a self-defeating maneuver because Pentagon would have to demonstrate this "hypothetical made-up" Chinese weapon is credible threat, which in turn DOES become a credible threat because Pentagon demonstrate it is credible. LOL.
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The Pentagon and others are just as capable of using the Sun Tsu principles in reverse to their own ends...and I would expect them to do so.

Fact remains. There has not been one announced or verifiable test that has been performed and demonstrated. No long range BM shot into the China Sea (or further) hitting carrier like targets. We will know when that happens...but it hasn't happened yet.
 
IronsightSniper

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Asymptote said:
Then, I don't understand why would Pentagon say the DF-21D ASBM is operational, and that its a credible threat? Maybe there is no DF-21D ASBM after all! Since there is no official acknowledgment from Chinese government of its existence! That means, the Pentagon made up the threat, to get more funding. But that's a self-defeating maneuver because Pentagon would have to demonstrate this "hypothetical made-up" Chinese weapon is credible threat, which in turn DOES become a credible threat because Pentagon demonstrate it is credible. LOL.
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The Pentagon never said the DF-21D was operation, just "within operational capability". And you must understand how the American psych works, if the Pentagon thinks there's a possible threat, they will get more funding. Taxpayers won't ask about it unless the Democrats ran out of sh*t to sling.

Quickie said:
I'm sure it can. The problem is the laser is required to hit the missile at the same spot for a few seconds. This would be very difficult if the missile is maneuvering and spinning, however slightly. The target in the video wasn't maneuvering and it was not known how far the target is. I suspect tracking and actually hitting close enough to a spot would be a problem if the target is maneuvering and at a far enough distance.
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What video? If you're referring to
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, the video itself says that the duration is not accurate. Also, according the the Airborne Laser's own website (
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), it only takes at worst 5 seconds to destroy a Liquid-fueled missile, and it could destroy one during it's boost phase from 600 km away, which is again, longer of a range than any PLA SAM can reach (unless it's on a boat of course.)
 
D

delft

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

IronsightSniper wrote:
It only takes at worst 5 seconds to destroy a Liquid-fueled missile, and it could destroy one during it's boost phase from 600 km away, which is again, longer of a range than any PLA SAM can reach (unless it's on a boat of course.)

But we're not talking about liquid-fueled missiles.
 
IronsightSniper

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

delft said:
IronsightSniper wrote:
It only takes at worst 5 seconds to destroy a Liquid-fueled missile, and it could destroy one during it's boost phase from 600 km away, which is again, longer of a range than any PLA SAM can reach (unless it's on a boat of course.)

But we're not talking about liquid-fueled missiles.
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Thing also said 400 km for Solid-fueled missiles.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

And that is before any defenses have been incorporated in the missile, beginning with rotation of the missile or use of a high acceleration missile, that might be burned out, before the laser weapon system can acquire it.
 
IronsightSniper

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

delft said:
And that is before any defenses have been incorporated in the missile, beginning with rotation of the missile or use of a high acceleration missile, that might be burned out, before the laser weapon system can acquire it.
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Carlo Kopp covered those counter-measures in one of his articles regarding DEW development.

Those "Counter-measures" are only slowing the inevitable. Mirror paint is highly expensive and highly corrosive and stuff such as faster burn time only means more powerful or efficient engines, the latter of which isn't possible unless a new breakthrough is first underwent and the former is more probable but only adds on to the weight.

P.S. regardless of the counter-measures, I'm guessing the laser will only take less than a minute to do it's thing to the missile. And even the short-duration launch cycles of high-survivability missiles like the TOPOL-M will not be short enough for the laser to blow it up mid-air.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

ABL isn't going to do jack when its pilots are blinded, and it takes a much smaller laser much shorter time to do that than it takes the ABL to down a missile.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

delft said:
And that is before any defenses have been incorporated in the missile, beginning with rotation of the missile or use of a high acceleration missile, that might be burned out, before the laser weapon system can acquire it.
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You don't need any defense on the missile itself. First, the ABL is never going to get in range at all before it is shot down. You have to remember that China's ICBMs are deployed inland while air defense extends outward few hundred kilometers from the coastline. Second, you can always launch a tactical nuke at where the ABL is at, and it's bye-bye 747.
 
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