Miscellaneous News

solarz

Brigadier
I said I would drop the convo, but it seems you have understood my points on the previous posts, so I consider this another convo

The difference is huge.
S.Korea and Japan (and many others) are part of the American Empire. That alone is sufficient enough to explain the difference between these 2 terms.

Now what do I practically mean when I say part of the American Empire?
These two countries have a sizable number of US troops on their own countries. Does China has troops (nevermind the number) in Russia? No.

Their economy is completely controlled by the US. Not by directly looking at the trade data, but instead looking at the tech IP. US holds the IP for everything these two countries do. Biden with a stroke of his pen could delete their economies if he wanted. Does China have a similar kind of control to Russia? No. However, with China increasingly becoming the only high-tech exporter to China, we could see Russia getting in a similar position in >5-10 years. So that's something to keep in mind here. Not that China would use it as a threat, but merely the possibility of it would signal that Russia has taken a junior partner role because Russian policy makers would be double and triple worried to not be against China.

3rd. Currency. What currency do they use. The entire American Empire has marching orders to support their master's currency, the dollar. (If you ask about Euro, it is a complex case and there were a lot of intertwined objectives when creating it). But in any case, either dollar or euro its all western currency, and the US never hesitates to sabotage its vassal's currency (otherwise known as harvesting). Now what about Russia and China, is Russia supporting RMB as much as possible? No, but as for yesterday it seems the answer is yes. Of course this will also take a long time (5-10 years?), but the statements yesterday were very clear on that. So on currency, Russia on the long term will be on similar situation that other countries are with dollars.

4th. Diplomacy. Here, the less said the better. The US has (or trying to gain) full control of its vassal's diplomacy. And does China do the same with Russia? No! Russia is a full blown independent diplomatic power. The only decline on its diplomatic power will be because its economy will become too small for it to retain influence in world matters (specifically in Central Asia). However, Russia will still remain an independent power.

5th. Culture. Same with above, the less said the better. Western societies must drink the US-served cultural poison. There is no possibility of rebellion here. So what about Russia, does China forces its culture to Russia? No! In fact, Russia is more European oriented than Asian (Nevermind China).

6th. Media. Need I say any more? Same story. Does China have control of Russia's media/MSM? No!

7th. "Alliances". The whole American Empire territories serve the US under NATO (US basically) or other kinds of formal "alliances" (pledges of defence basically to the US). Does China have something similar with Russia? No!

8th. Military. American Empire territories depend on US military tech/maintenance/expertise/IP. Does Russia depend in a similar manner to China? No!


The most fundamental difference between junior partner and vassal is that the vassal is locked in to forever remain under the boot of its master. No control of economy, tech, currency, diplomacy, geopolitics, military, society, culture, espionage, governance, laws, cyberspace control, etc.

The junior partner can freely jump ship if he wishes so. The junior partner understands that the senior partner is driving the ship, but this ain't a one-man trip. The junior partner can refuse, can object, resist, have opinion, consult, change partners, jumb ship, sometimes play both sides etc.

That's why even though he is called "junior" he is still a "partner" thus "junior partner". Whereas the vassal is a vassal. If your Lord says go and die, you pack up your things and go and die, simple as that

So far, all you've proven is that the US exerts greater control over SK and Japan than China exerts over Russia. Nobody is disputing that.

The problem here is your arbitrary definition of "junior partner" and your insistence on applying it to the China Russia partnership.

Incidentally, "jumping ship" isn't the litmus test between "junior partner" and "vassal" that you seem to think it is. Historically, vassals switch their allegiances all the time, and even today, SK and Japan can also switch their allegiance: it just takes more effort. In fact, if we want to take this feudalism analogy further, liege lords had to make concessions to their vassals all the time. Guess how the Magna Carta came into being?

However, that's all irrelevant, because you said it yourself: in order to be a junior partner, you have to have a senior partner who's driving the ship. What ship is China driving?
 

solarz

Brigadier
What you described is a "Vassalage" relationship, not a junior partnership.

Here is the official definition:

A vassal is by definition a junior partner, but a junior partner is not a vassal. Junior partners by definition, just less influence or power, not necessarily a superior-subordinate relationship.

I think you need to look up the definition of Vassalage and Junior Partnership, it's really that straight forward. Between you twisting "Marriage" and "Comrade-in-arms", and not even understanding the basic definitions, it's really going in useless circles.

So let me get this straight:

You acknowledge that vassals are "junior partners", and thus it would be accurate to state that SK and Japan are junior partners to the US.

Yet, somehow, you want us to accept the idea that when you and voyager label Russia as the junior partner, you are not trying to put down Russia as a subordinate of China?

Can you give us an example in any media where the term "junior partner" does not imply subordination?
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
So far, all you've proven is that the US exerts greater control over SK and Japan than China exerts over Russia. Nobody is disputing that.
Ok. One note here though. China has the capability today and even more in 5-10 years to actually utilise all that leverage. My analysis says that China in fact won't use that leverage in the short-medium term. Can't say anything for long term because that's too far for me to estimate the world geopolitics. I lean towards still not using it but I ain't putting down serious money on it either.

The problem here is your arbitrary definition of "junior partner" and your insistence on applying it to the China Russia partnership.
Junior partners have existed during the history, continue to exist today, and will exist in the future as well. If the name itself is offensive to you, which I certainly can understand why, you can just use cooperation, partner, ally or whatever else. I consider all these words as mostly PR in the modern world but anyway, I am not a hypocrite. I freely call European countries vassals and puppets, so I am consistent here when I say Russia is becoming a junior partner

Incidentally, "jumping ship" isn't the litmus test between "junior partner" and "vassal" that you seem to think it is.
Jumping ship is just one of the features. There many others.

Historically, vassals switch their allegiances all the time, and even today, SK and Japan can also switch their allegiance: it just takes more effort. In fact, if we want to take this feudalism analogy further, liege lords had to make concessions to their vassals all the time. Guess how the Magna Carta came into being?
Vassals can indeed change allegiances however there is one crucial difference. On my American Empire framework I list both Japan and S.Korea as imperial territory, not just vassals. They are a tier above vassals, they are the kind which are practically an extension of the US. Expecting them to rebel is as much realistic as expecting your arm to rebel against you and join your enemy's body. But anyway, that's my analysis, you are free to disagree with it, however I have to say that my American Empire framework is playing pretty well.

Now for other countries which are actually vassals and not imperial territory, switching allegiance is certainly possible, but is much harder nowadays as their Lord in the modern era has many ways to control them. In the past changing allegiance was relatively easy, nowadays though its a magnitude harder, and especially when your Lord is the hegemon and not a random small weak country.


However, that's all irrelevant, because you said it yourself: in order to be a junior partner, you have to have a senior partner who's driving the ship. What ship is China driving?
China is driving the ship of the national rejuvenation and the Chinese dream. Going back to my initial point, there are only interests between countries. China's number 1 interest is national rejuvenation. Thats the ship that China drives. Now if you ask, but why would Russia want to get on that ship then? Well, China as part of the big plan for becoming a superpower has laid out a series of global plans and initiatives that in totality form a Global Order with Chinese Characteristics. GDI, GSI, GCI, BRI, SCO, ADB.

Russia, contrary to what people think, has its own agency, interests, priorities, wishes and concerns. Make no mistake, if the West was smart enough it could have Russia on its own ship two decades ago. Russia boarding China's ship is part because the West pushed it in the corner, and part because it likes China's vision because it conforms with its national interests.

There is nothing weird or shocking in geopolitics. As long as you dig deep enough everything is plain to see if you know what to look for. In fact, Russia's march to China has been noticed since the early 2000s
 

Phead128

Major
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
You acknowledge that vassals are "junior partners", and thus it would be accurate to state that SK and Japan are junior partners to the US.
Yes!
Yet, somehow, you want us to accept the idea that when you and voyager label Russia as the junior partner, you are not trying to put down Russia as a subordinate of China?
Yes!
Can you give us an example in any media where the term "junior partner" does not imply subordination?
A vassal is a subordinate. What you described is a vassal.

A junior partner means disparity or imbalance in power, which may or may not result in a superior-subordinate relationship. A junior partner does not necessarily result in superior-subordinate relationship.

The difference is a junior partner can voluntarily pick and choose their partners, whereas a vassal cannot pick and choose their masters short of revolt.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Ok. One note here though. China has the capability today and even more in 5-10 years to actually utilise all that leverage. My analysis says that China in fact won't use that leverage in the short-medium term. Can't say anything for long term because that's too far for me to estimate the world geopolitics. I lean towards still not using it but I ain't putting down serious money on it either.


Junior partners have existed during the history, continue to exist today, and will exist in the future as well. If the name itself is offensive to you, which I certainly can understand why, you can just use cooperation, partner, ally or whatever else. I consider all these words as mostly PR in the modern world but anyway, I am not a hypocrite. I freely call European countries vassals and puppets, so I am consistent here when I say Russia is becoming a junior partner


Jumping ship is just one of the features. There many others.


Vassals can indeed change allegiances however there is one crucial difference. On my American Empire framework I list both Japan and S.Korea as imperial territory, not just vassals. They are a tier above vassals, they are the kind which are practically an extension of the US. Expecting them to rebel is as much realistic as expecting your arm to rebel against you and join your enemy's body. But anyway, that's my analysis, you are free to disagree with it, however I have to say that my American Empire framework is playing pretty well.

Now for other countries which are actually vassals and not imperial territory, switching allegiance is certainly possible, but is much harder nowadays as their Lord in the modern era has many ways to control them. In the past changing allegiance was relatively easy, nowadays though its a magnitude harder, and especially when your Lord is the hegemon and not a random small weak country.



China is driving the ship of the national rejuvenation and the Chinese dream. Going back to my initial point, there are only interests between countries. China's number 1 interest is national rejuvenation. Thats the ship that China drives. Now if you ask, but why would Russia want to get on that ship then? Well, China as part of the big plan for becoming a superpower has laid out a series of global plans and initiatives that in totality form a Global Order with Chinese Characteristics. GDI, GSI, GCI, BRI, SCO, ADB.

Russia, contrary to what people think, has its own agency, interests, priorities, wishes and concerns. Make no mistake, if the West was smart enough it could have Russia on its own ship two decades ago. Russia boarding China's ship is part because the West pushed it in the corner, and part because it likes China's vision because it conforms with its national interests.

There is nothing weird or shocking in geopolitics. As long as you dig deep enough everything is plain to see if you know what to look for. In fact, Russia's march to China has been noticed since the early 2000s

Also @Phead128

We can argue the definition of terms all day long, but in the end, the meaning of terms is based on what the majority of people who use the term believe it means.

So here are the results of a google search on "junior partner international relations":

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Half the results are about how Russia is China's "junior partner", even though my search term did not include Russia, while the rest are about "junior partners" to the US.

Well guess what guys? I challenge you to find one article that calls Russia a junior partner but does not imply a subordination.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Also @Phead128

We can argue the definition of terms all day long, but in the end, the meaning of terms is based on what the majority of people who use the term believe it means.

So here are the results of a google search on "junior partner international relations":

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Half the results are about how Russia is China's "junior partner", even though my search term did not include Russia, while the rest are about "junior partners" to the US.

Well guess what guys? I challenge you to find one article that calls Russia a junior partner but does not imply a subordination.
This argument is certainly valid, however I also acknowledged that I was speaking in a non-PR way. Nowadays nobody is saying X country is junior partner, vassal/puppet of Y country. Instead they say "friends, allies, partners, democratic order, rules based order" and all that crap.

So in that way, I can certainly understand why if a casual user read our convo they would have a lot of misunderstandings " wow! China wants a subordinate Russia!". That's a valid concern given how widespread western propaganda is.

Understanding that, I will add more disclaimers and will refrain from using the "junior partner" as much as possible but be aware that this is my true non-PR analysis. On the other hand people should also be aware that with all that PR on the forum it will start clouding people's judgment, as we saw with all that back and fourth in this matter. There is a huge unbridgeable difference between a junior partner and a vassal. Me and Phead tried to explain that but it seems everyone got fixated on the junior partner label as fed through by western propaganda demonizing the actual phrase instead of looking what it actually means

Anyway, I am taking that step back because I acknowledge that sometimes perception of reality is stronger than reality itself. So even if to me, junior partner means something very specific, for the vast majority of the people it is a loaded word with negative meaning. SDF's political section should be stronger than that, cultivating strategic minds with wide expertise, but then you also can't expect everyone to be knowledgeable on geopolitics, history, diplomacy, realpolitik, and economics at the same time.

Western propaganda is really powerful on how it can change the meaning of words and phrases as shown in the above examples you posted. Convo over (for real this time)
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
This Xi-Putin meeting and it's results pretty much signals that Russia is to become a junior partner of China, China's Canada, and basically becoming (non-PR version) an economic colony.

Russia will become wealthy, now how that wealth will be distributed among its people, that's another matter. People might be tempted to say "Not China's problem!", but human psychology doesn't work like that. With this new arrangement, China should aim to encourage/push Russia towards a more equal distribution of wealth that what they have currently
You sound like trying to make USA 2.0 out of China by 1 treating allies as vassal state and 2 exporting ideology. Seems that you don't love China to be China but another USA instead.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
You sound like trying to make USA 2.0 out of China by 1 treating allies as vessel state and 2 exporting ideology. Seems that you don't love China to be China but another USA instead.
Keep reading on my following posts, I elaborate my points there. I am too tired to debate you as well lol. Read everything from start to finish(the whole convo), and if you are still uncertain about some points or want to debate me further, you are welcome to do so.

But keep in mind if you decide to debate, I expect you to match my effort. If I write a long post with multiple arguments I would expect from you to address them in a serious and logical way not like the other time we had a debate.

I won't accept deflections and/or illogical points. Had my fair share of them today, not going to entertain any more of that on this specific matter. Btw this response of your just now, falls under "illogical points". If you have any specific question you are also welcome to PM me
 

BMUFL

Junior Member
Registered Member
BLUF: "junior partner" is political correct speech for "vassal", but "vassals" have more freedoms that people think.

Okay, I think people in this thread are getting too focused on "vassal" and "junior partner". As far as I know, "vassal" in the case of modern international relations is only an analogy. After all, no one is actually "bending their knees" to another head of state and kiss their hand or whatever. So, strictly speaking, vassal-liege lord relation doesn't exist.

As for vassals betraying their liege, well, that happens all the time (from Spring and Autumn in China, to High Middle Ages in Europe, to Sengoku in Japan; I'm sure everyone here can find plenty of examples). After all, if the liege lord was weak, what was he going to do? Come to your house? The whole point of paying homage to a liege lord is because they can provide you security and/or prosperity. If they can't deliver, what's the point? Also, depending on how one plays their card, the vassal can influence their liege lord, thus influcing something much greater than what they can as an independent prince.

Anyway, to bring it back to modern day. NATO-stans (heh), uhh... "pay their homage" to United States because United States provides the ruling class of the said countries with benefits and influences. If United States can't deliver, we'd see a lot of change in tunes. There are a lot of ambitious middle-aged men everywhere just waiting for their days to come.
 
Last edited:

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Keep reading on my following posts, I elaborate my points there. I am too tired to debate you as well lol. Read everything from start to finish(the whole convo), and if you are still uncertain about some points or want to debate me further, you are welcome to do so.

But keep in mind if you decide to debate, I expect you to match my effort. If I write a long post with multiple arguments I would expect from you to address them in a serious and logical way not like the other time we had a debate.

I won't accept deflections and/or illogical points. Had my fair share of them today, not going to entertain any more of that on this specific matter. Btw this response of your just now, falls under "illogical points". If you have any specific question you are also welcome to PM me
I reply to the post when I read it up to that point. If you did not make your self clear up to that point, I suggest you make a better effort next time. You can't expect people to sum up all your posts and deduce whatever your idea is, you have to take care of yourself.

As some other member has pointed out, I don't really need to read following posts to get your idea since it is only the western media that used the phrase "junior partner", speaking the western language and taking up their concept and talking-point is sharing their idea, just like what "human right" from western media mean to a Chinese.
 
Last edited:
Top