Ladakh Flash Point

Xizor · Aug 18, 2021

tallgamer said:
Calibration- your win.
Why so much discussion on tanks though ? Its a past century equipment that in a modern battle will be a sitting target. As seen in the recent Turkey backed conflict.
India Pakistan with comparable technological levels , tanks might be more relevant but i doubt India china conflicts will revolve around the shooting accuracy of tanks. Dont see tanks leading the charge. Too many effective anti tank measures around now.
As for comparing tanks , lighter tanks are more maneuverable but have lighter armor. In the 65 indo pak conflict, the modern american patton tanks with Pakistan could not penetrate the armor of the ww2 centurions with India.

Even artillery with its greater range and firepower might be more effective with its blanket coverage. Though airpower and drones might rule the roost.
From a dispassionate viewpoint, a small conflict between the two countries would be pretty interesting. Chinese mostly homegrown weapons/Russian vs Indian western and Russian.

Gaining and holding territory is still a thing. Also, India can't berate tanks and uphold UAVs since India can't lay claim to be superior in neither of these.

India still is importing UAVs from US and Israel, right? PLA doesn't have to place foreign orders for its UAV demands.

Bellum_Romanum · Aug 18, 2021

do3jack said:
There are too many mistakes in your speech. I will only talk about one point. It is about Hong Kong. If someone rallies to protest in India and raises the flags of Pakistan and China, saying that they are not Indians and they want independence, how do you deal with it?

@tallgamer is going to come up with yet another idiotic, fat-free response and declare his answers as a testimony to the beauty and advantages of a country like India free from commie like bondage or some b.s. like that. The dude is complaining about the responses he's getting because he feels that it's mostly derogatory and trollish without any hint of irony when the man's posts are mostly useless diatribe against China, the gov't and the Chinese people calling us mindless machines or have no rights whatsoever. What a f..ng hoot.

Bellum_Romanum · Aug 18, 2021

ougoah said:
Indians are great talkers and at self promotion. And yet pick and choose any western company and product, guess what? they sell thousands more times in China. And yet they have a trade deficit with China. Could it be that China is just pretty competitive? What happened to the free market? If it weren't for Chinese demand and market for these things, many western companies would lose a great massive chunk of their income. Chinese consumer spending and money have saved many western companies from bankruptcy. Maserati was selling dozens per year until they managed to gain a Chinese market and then since the 2000s started really taking off. Do we see indians doing any of that? Perhaps the reason for India's trade deficit with plenty of western nations is because India is poor as fuck and less developed than one can imagine but will want to present its most shiny side and a few Indian elites cannot account for that much. India also has shit all exports. Okay it's great at making western meds for cheaper using factories and formula provided by the western developer e.g. Bayer. It's also great at speaking English and providing IT support. Your trade deficit is nothign to be proud of. Quite the oppsite but it speaks volumes about your slave mentality. India - "Accept me oh white master for you have a surplus on us as it ought to be! unlike bad China! please tell me I am better than China!".

Could it be that India is just mostly talk and disappointing overall in final net? It claims so much but delivers so little. It really does make excuses better than anyone else though.

Brutality!! Take it easy on @tallgamer he needs some time to pick up his littered body parts off the floor.

manqiangrexue · Aug 18, 2021

tallgamer said:
You didn't see the countrywide protests in India for rights of Pakistani, Afghan and Bangladesh muslims to migrate to India in a expedited manner , like was being given to the minorities in these countries ?
So many videos in YouTube of college students in delhi asking for "azadi"(freedom), though they couch it in more subtle ways by associating it with freedoms in the country .
Our flag and constitution has been openly burnt so many times that it doesn't make much news.
Farmers are still blocking key highways around delhi for continuing subsidies. More than a year. A 30 min drive now takes more than 2 hours. These guys have free electricity and pay zero taxes. Many are super rich. And they indulged in violence in the main red fort area. Didnt see any getting shot.
Frankly its a joke comparing hk to India.
The freedom loving legislatures have been banned from your parliament and many put in jail. Even standing for elections is decided by the chief executive of hk.
Flying a Pakistani or Chinese flag will get some local police censure but the guy can't be jailed under present laws , will be released on the same day. To assuage local feelings some drama only. Legally cant be prosecuted .
And these are enemy countries. You are comparing with uk flag , which is not a open enemy of China.
A few years back i was watching a ipl cricket match in a stadium and some local college guys brought a Bangladesh flag and were hooting fir3 Bangladesh. Ipl is a local tournament. Everyone just laughed.

Are you... bragging about how terrible "freedom" has made your country? I feel like we rag on India and then you rag on India some more... it's feeling a bit awkward.

tallgamer said:
And so you guys copied some western invention like drone and made a lot of these. Good for you.

Copied the drone? LOL Why don't you just say copied the plane/car/bicycle/wheel? After a certain time, an invention becomes universal and improvement, not reinventing the wheel, becomes the mark of innovation.

tallgamer said:
China is expansionist and nibbling at the borders is a art it has perfected.

India tries harder; it is just too far from having perfected it...

tallgamer said:
We have no disputes with the west.

Because you swallowed thier democracy and can challenge them at nothing. Airbus has disputes with Boeing... Larry's Backyard Throw Planes (Ages 5+) doesn't.

tallgamer said:
China has used a extremist country like Pakistan very cynically to target India by giving it nukes and conventional arms.

Why would India deserve nukes and arms but not Pakistan?

tallgamer said:
China has unfortunately no morals.

Says the people who conducted an ambush against unarmed negotiators LOL

tallgamer said:
I have worked with you guys and you pass of poor quality knowingly.

At least we know poor quality and can send it to the right place. The Indians I worked with don't know what quality anything is.

tallgamer said:
India suffered a lot 15 years back when it imported poor quality power equipment from china.

They suffered like... even more than now? It's getting hard to imagine.

tallgamer said:
West is expensive but meets minimum quality standards.

Yeah, hard choice for India: spend tons of money for minimum quality, or spend less money to get dumped on by China. Chinese spend less money, get better quality.

tallgamer said:
The British are responsible for the creation of Pakistan and erstwhile east Pakistan and for that most Indians thank them.

Ooooooooooohhhh, you THANK the British for what they did to you!! Now that is eye-opening...

tallgamer said:
Muslims unfortunately are a high maintenance group and another 400 m of them in undivided India would have been a disaster.

Couldn't get worse than it is now.

tallgamer said:
Indians, germans, Japanese, Italians are not living in the 1940s like the Chinese with their century of humiliation. It was the past, we look at whats happening now.

Chinese remember the past but build for the present and future. Those countries would like to live in a past where their glories lived (except India, which has no period of success in modern history) but China keeps bringing them into the present and future, where China has used its historical lessons to power itself forward. We Chinese don't look to the past because it looks good; we do so to keep a pain that reminds ourselves the price for weakness. Indians looking at neither the past nor the future but the now simply shows that the government has not developed the country yet to a point where the people can think about anything further than immediate survival.

Bellum_Romanum · Aug 18, 2021

subdivide said:
Of course not. The West drew your borders.

Delete

ougoah · Aug 18, 2021

Bellum_Romanum said:
@tallgamer is going to come up with yet another idiotic, fat-free response and declare his answers as a testimony to the beauty and advantages of a country like India free from commie like bondage or some b.s. like that. The dude is complaining about the responses he's getting because he feels that it's mostly derogatory and trollish without any hint of irony when the man's posts are mostly useless diatribe against China, the gov't and the Chinese people calling us mindless machines or have no rights whatsoever. What a f..ng hoot.

You've said in a short paragraph what my hopeless communication skills was not able to say in a few posts that try to call this out.

With so many jai hinds it's a lot of "we are so awesome and powaful. China sucks because it is commie and commie is shitty and shitty is bad and we are not bad and so we are stronk!"

"Chyna make junk but we make good phone calls and stronk economy and commies lie all the time and we tell true true always."

When you don't agree with them or point things out, that's where the real empty proclamations start getting delivered. Many youtubers stumble onto this and realise what it's like. Always interesting and fun when that happens and westerners realise. Part and parcel of needing to be accepted and going out of your way to tell others how stronk you are when all the evidence points to the opposite.

India is so good and beautiful, virtuous, free, loving, colourful, interesting, incredible, rich, vibrant, attracting billions and trillions and zillions of investors and India is developing well and has few problems which are all Pakistan and China's faults anyway or the Britishers.

Chyna is commie and shitty and evil and polluted and grey and they have such bad people all machines every chinki is a machine and does not have thinking. Indians are smart and CEO!

ougoah · Aug 18, 2021

manqiangrexue said:
India tries harder; it is just too far from having perfected it...

Because you swallowed thier democracy and can challenge them at nothing. Airbus has disputes with Boeing... Larry's Backyard Throw Planes (Ages 5+) doesn't.

These are too spot on. India tries desperately hard and pretend they spare no effort. Not just in salami slicing borders which China has done to better success in the past. India tries but they haven't formed a decent society yet to get places with their efforts. For all they say about China on admitting problems, they are on another level when it comes to making realisations and ignoring problems. We have long been looking hard at our and working on resolving them.

India unable to challenge the West in anything is no small part in why the west does not care for India.

Does the west ever care for anyone in poverty? Apart from poverty porn they enjoy, "feeling" sorry for the poor peoples around the world, and taking changes at playing saviour until they are tired, they do not care for the poor or the ones at the bottom. They care immensely about those who are able to take a slice of the pie they feel they are exclusively entitled to. Indians not realising this still is disappointing. China isn't responsible for their ills. Resolve issues with Pakistan. Compromise on Ladakh and demarcate with losing Aksai Chin and be okay with that. Don't say we will retake (what was never India's) with blood and fill the minds of Indian sheep with Hindu stronk narratives.

Unfortunately they will simply continue calling people names online and that's the extent of their mightiness.

Indian lower castes and revolutionaries will continue holding feelings of inequity until it reaches critical mass. It is India's current path to Hindu nationalism eventually failing to hold these forces down and greater change brought about to correct society. The gini coefficient is already trying hard to dial down how skewed India actually is while trying its best to portray China is a worse light. Oh well. Complain all these Chinese are rich enough to send less studious children to party colleges overseas and buying up property and investing in western companies but somehow most of China is in abject poverty. Hmmm. Methink some should venture into India and take a real proper look around. They will complain about China or try and diminish it whenever they can. It's ha you see you guys need to send all your children overseas to study or there are too many Chinese students stealing my undergrad useless knowledge. There is nothing China can be or do that won't be able to be attacked in some form. Indians don't realise anything and get deluded into believing extremely inaccurate things from swallowing inaccurate propaganda. The problem is they often act upon it when the west is too smart to deceive themselves.

tallgamer · Aug 18, 2021

ougoah said:
Okay so to go back to what brought up this sidetrack, you guys have no issues with the West in particular UK. They did draw up your borders and it wasn't China which brought about Pakistan and Bangladesh or as you put it, India divided. You personally at least consider it a good thing since 400m Muslims "would have been a disaster" for India in your opinion.

Okay. The points are made.

I wouldn't say China is still living in its century of humiliation no more than I would say Germans, Japanese, Italians etc are living in the 1940s. You guys still look at the past though, rather than "what's happening now". You guys constantly have issues with the Britishers and for good reason. It was a double edged sword. It brought you benefits as well as a lot of problems. Probably much more problems than benefits but the benefits were not exploited.

What did the UK want out of "pliable country post independece"? How did Pakistan serve them and USA well?

The rest I agree with. Sell to whoever you want and the only major issue are border disputes that date all the way back to the founding of India and the PRC during the mid 20th century. It is a middle ground and right at the edges of Tibet and "India", pre independence and post, mixed in with your unresolved border disputes with Pakistan as J&K is not well defined to say the least.

Imran Khan tearing up 75 yo division of India and started claiming areas not connected to Kashmir is news to me and irrelevant to India China border dispute. If he wants more hostilities, India should resolve that in whatever way it is able to. Why would he want more hostilities? He has recently been partly responsible for the Pakistan and India ceasefires has he not? Extending a bridge to India right when India has tension with China. I would say he's been doing the opposite of trying to increase hostilities as you said. But I am not too familiar with Pakistan India developments beyond the ceasefire this year.

Pakistan joined the American led SEATO alliance in 1954 a few years after independence. It had uk also as a member. Thats 8 years after independence. India refused due its non alignment policy.
It served as a go between for usa and Chinese communication.
Served usa/uk well during the anti soviet Afghanistan war.
Served the west well again in the post 9/11 Afghan invasion.

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"On August 4, Pakistan’s Prime Minister Imran Khan unveiled a new political map of his country inviting a sharp reaction from India. While the new map reiterated their earlier claims over regions of Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh as Pakistani territories, a new and somewhat surprising claim was made over Junagadh and, to some extent, over Sir Creek in Gujarat.
Sir Creek forms the boundary between the Indian state of Gujarat and the Pakistani province of Sindh. It has been a subject of dispute between the two countries, often leading to clashes between security forces. But it is Pakistan’s claim over Junagadh, a part of coastal Gujarat, which brings up an interesting slice of history."

These were settled international borders.

And you are not hopeless. You try your best..

Ringsword · Aug 18, 2021

ougoah said:
You've said in a short paragraph what my hopeless communication skills was not able to say in a few posts that try to call this out.

With so many jai hinds it's a lot of "we are so awesome and powaful. China sucks because it is commie and commie is shitty and shitty is bad and we are not bad and so we are stronk!"

"Chyna make junk but we make good phone calls and stronk economy and commies lie all the time and we tell true true always."

When you don't agree with them or point things out, that's where the real empty proclamations start getting delivered. Many youtubers stumble onto this and realise what it's like. Always interesting and fun when that happens and westerners realise. Part and parcel of needing to be accepted and going out of your way to tell others how stronk you are when all the evidence points to the opposite.

India is so good and beautiful, virtuous, free, loving, colourful, interesting, incredible, rich, vibrant, attracting billions and trillions and zillions of investors and India is developing well and has few problems which are all Pakistan and China's faults anyway or the Britishers.

Chyna is commie and shitty and evil and polluted and grey and they have such bad people all machines every chinki is a machine and does not have thinking. Indians are smart and CEO!

Bellum_Romanum · Aug 18, 2021

ougoah said:
You've said in a short paragraph what my hopeless communication skills was not able to say in a few posts that try to call this out.

With so many jai hinds it's a lot of "we are so awesome and powaful. China sucks because it is commie and commie is shitty and shitty is bad and we are not bad and so we are stronk!"

"Chyna make junk but we make good phone calls and stronk economy and commies lie all the time and we tell true true always."

When you don't agree with them or point things out, that's where the real empty proclamations start getting delivered. Many youtubers stumble onto this and realise what it's like. Always interesting and fun when that happens and westerners realise. Part and parcel of needing to be accepted and going out of your way to tell others how stronk you are when all the evidence points to the opposite.

India is so good and beautiful, virtuous, free, loving, colourful, interesting, incredible, rich, vibrant, attracting billions and trillions and zillions of investors and India is developing well and has few problems which are all Pakistan and China's faults anyway or the Britishers.

Chyna is commie and shitty and evil and polluted and grey and they have such bad people all machines every chinki is a machine and does not have thinking. Indians are smart and CEO!

I do enjoy reading your rhetorical smack downs because @tallgamer doesn't have any credible response without going ape shit or using ad hominem I.e. Chinese commies, copy cats, Chinese lacking morals etc. And also the weasel way of deflecting the topic by wading into another unrelated or tangentially related issues into the debate. I have yet to read or see objective data that can outright support their super duper claims. Zilch.

Ladakh Flash Point

Xizor

Captain

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier

ougoah

Brigadier

ougoah

Brigadier

tallgamer

New Member

Ringsword

Junior Member

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier