Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

Which areas did Bhutan receive in exchange? There are still multiple disputed areas other than doklam. China has refused to exchange them for anything other than South doklam, as Lamsang said in his thread.

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I don't know what Bhutan received in exchange.

If nothing, then indeed the road construction in the northern side of that 2 to 4 line (claimed by Bhutan) would be a construction within disputed territory.

If there was something Bhutan received in exchange, it explains why southern Doklam was treated as disputed land and why both countries went in for negotiation of southern Doklam so China could complete the network and offer Bhutan something agreeable in exchange. This was not allowed to complete. Why would Bhutan allow northern Doklam construction if it wasn't already settled. As in the parts the road network is on would either have been settled (so non issue at that point) or Bhutan would have received something in exchange for northern Doklam where that road is. When it came to completing it in the south, India interjected.

As for Bhutan's Batang claim, they claim this but allow the road? I think the claim is there is place as a formality but I admit I do not know what if anythign Bhutan received in exchange for northern Doklam if it was settled AFTER 2002 and if it was indeed settled. If it was settled before 2002, then it makes no sense for Bhutan to claim it in 2004.

These border issues India has with her neighbors wouldn't be resolved as long as India's tendency for a strong man rule couched in democratic trappings is not resolved in dealing with the real hard power Indian military has. India's military was, still is, will never be trusted by the ruling elite, since its inception. Nehru and all the successors never a created a position for commander in chief who controls all services combined, keeping the generals weak under politicians' control. It's a way of keeping tabs on the guns and keeping them busy somewhere else. And it works, all the while jai hind crowds worked up for stupid lols and nothing substantive.

Judging from the results, India has been very aggressive since its founding and has annexed some surrounding countries.

They could have sinister designs on smaller weaker states, but not on real pros like China who gave them a good thrashing which they still remember in their collective DNA to this day and still felt the dongs in their throat so to speak.

zgx09t said:

They could have sinister designs on smaller weaker states, but not on real pros like China who gave them a good thrashing which they still remember in their collective DNA to this day and still felt the dongs in their throat so to speak.

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Does the Indian goverment have short memories?

tallgamer said:

The **undisputed facts **are -
1. During the surge in covid , china decided to divert a large training force into disputed areas. Simultaneously it also picked fights with vietnam by sinking their boat and started aggressive air flights over Taiwan , etc.
My theory is that it was done to divert focus from the virus.
In india's case the planning was probably in place due to the doklam humiliation. The virus presented a good opportunity.
No one here likes to address why the Chinese chose this pandemic time to move when other transgressions were very minor before ?

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Indians talk much so China is only learning how to deal with India. The Chinese media traditionally doesn't focus much on India and the border clash hasn't registered much media attention back then in China.

Let me give you the alternate - India tried to attack China when China was under the initial wave of coronavirus. This was also the time when Trump had the trade war ongoing with China. Modi and Trumps were on good terms.

The Indian government didn't have much reasons to join the Anti-China QUAD alliance before but this clash with China would bolster domestic support for Anti-China stance and India joining a US led alliance - a departure from its policy of keeping some distance with superpowers and non alliance.

Now the Indian audience won't question India's alliance with US and loss of strategic autonomy as India could always play up the China card and Ladakh clash. US would have dangled the economic carrot and promised India's lackluster economy more investments.

tallgamer said:

2. Various reasons like India building infrastructure close to the border were given but the fact is the Chinese moved because they could due to superior fire power. The bottomline is "power flows through the barrel of the gun " for the Chinese. So against india they moved but against the west they are afraid, so the US fleets regular sailing into chinese claimed waters is met with spokespersons deploring and protesting.
They have super power delusions and unfortunately zero internal checks. We have seen how usa behaves as a superpower with some semblance of internal checks, now imagine a self righteous china claiming its 'rightful' position ? Not my words , just go back a few pages and read the chinese posters boasting of the rise of China.

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Chinese moved in due to superior logistics, infrastructure, mobilization and firepower. You earlier raised the case of Chinese fighter jet intercepting US sigint Aircraft near SCS two decades ago. That's doesn't fit the description of "China afraid of West". This is also the same China which fought wars directly and indirectly with the US, USSR, NATO.

As for the US Fonops... China doesn't throw a hissy fit over things that which has a possibility of derailing its growth. US does not have a military base in Taiwan. US nor EU still doesn't recognize Taiwans independence. Are they " afraid" of China? While the US conducted these ship sailing stunts, China built up SCS military presence. Why isn't US taking them over?

Is the US afraid of China?

tallgamer said:

3. The Chinese aggressions are not surprising for a independent observer but only for delusional Indian policy makers. The Chinese incursions have been happening on a regular basis since the 90s , when the bjp was not around. Indians are relying on the good intentions of the Chinese to not man the Chinese border, which is understandable as its a long and difficult border to man. But its poor defence. The Congress government had decided to make a new mountain force based on the Chinese actions but was mostly shelved because of cost .
But convenience does not trump reality. Modi the new 'hope' tried to build relations by having 19 meetings with xi in 5 years , but Chinese policy and actions are not based on 5 yearly election results. The Chinese are just continuing what they have been doing on a smaller scale.
If the blatant military and nuclear support to a country like Pakistan is not enough to open the government's eyes , i have no idea what is ? Solely look at the actions , not quotes from Confucius.

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Maybe... Just Maybe...China's "incursion" is because China has territorial claims over the regions? India's territorial claims come from a map handed down to them by their British masters. China's doesn't. China has no reason to recognize this.

You seem to project Modi and the Indian government as a do-gooder innocent agents with no expansionist intentions. But it's known to the members of this forum that Modi party is a right wing enterprise with some kind of religio-cultural-dominion-nation ideology that eyes Tibet, Pakistan, Nepal, Myanmar, Bangladesh and beyond.





India annexed Sikkim decades ago - India always had expansionist tendencies.

tallgamer said:

4. The Chinese have totally miscalculated this time. Problem is that no one knows what the Chinese government has in mind. The people here are just blind supporters and my first question , what was the reason behind the major incursion was not answered. Because its inconvenient and they dont know. They know the Chinese are the aggressors and try to spin it , unconvincingly.

Xi has managed to push a reluctant India into the American camp. The antipathy to USA in Indian government circles is well known because of American support to Pakistan. They are considered unprincipled and good solely for transactional relationships.
But from a practical viewpoint thanks to China, India has been pushed into securing its eastern borders at a minimum cost . The mountain brigade is being revived. The Tibetan's are being featured prominently. The Dalai Lama has been wished publicly by Modi for the first time in 6 years. We are acquiring arms at a faster rate, bypassing the bureaucracy. Infrastructure building in the border with China is now on a war footing.
The gloves are off. Its like the kargil and Mumbai massacre moment with Pakistan. All the peaceniks are sidelined and practical actions are in place.
Let the insults flow.....

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Reframe your question into a sensible one to get good answers. Imploring about the reasons for the clash is all good. It has been done in the forum many times over. There are different versions of the story that happened at the night of Galwan clash. The Chinese side has a story and the Indian side has another. Unless we have good evidences, we can't ascertain who really is the instigator and it'll come down purely to the individual biases and interests to believe what story and whose narrative.

The CCP and China doesn't seem to mind India procuring arms at an alarming rate. The largest importer of foreign weapons isn't a flattering title. You'll see the folly as time plays its part, for China respects Time.

The fact is that the people living in the Tibetan region of China enjoys better standards of living than Indians. That alone is the best thing China can do against India regarding Tibet and Tibetans.

davidau said:

Does the Indian goverment have short memories?

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These guys are stuck in a rut of formulaic setup with informal institutional inertia like corruption, division, deep inter service rivalry, etc. Even if someone wakes up and wants to find a solution, that person has to line up all the ducks in a row to satisfy all aspects of Indian body politics moving parts to make it happen to bring India forward to real nation building. Until then, Indian army achievements usually reads like a series of obituary. Like the first basic law of human stupidity says,"Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation."

Xsizor said:

Reframe your question into a sensible one to get good answers. Imploring about the reasons for the clash is all good. It has been done in the forum many times over. There are different versions of the story that happened at the night of Galwan clash. The Chinese side has a story and the Indian side has another. Unless we have good evidences, we can't ascertain who really is the instigator and it'll come down purely to the individual biases and interests to believe what story and whose narrative.

The CCP and China doesn't seem to mind India procuring arms at an alarming rate. The largest importer of foreign weapons isn't a flattering title. You'll see the folly as time plays its part, for China respects Time.

The fact is that the people living in the Tibetan region of China enjoys better standards of living than Indians. That alone is the best thing China can do against India regarding Tibet and Tibetans.

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This is rather odd isn’t it. For a supposed man of the people Modi hasn’t really visited any of the impoverished Indian village households while a princeling like Xi has made poverty alleviation his top priority. Maybe the poor votes for him regardless?