Ladakh Flash Point

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twineedle

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"The Secretary informed the members that Bhutan’s boundary claim line
starts from the vicinity of Batangla and goes to Merugla and Sinchela.
From there it goes down to Amo Chhu and then to Langmarpo Zam.
From the confluence of Langmarpo Chhu and Amo Chhu, it goes along
Docherimchang from where it goes to Gomla and from Gomla to
Pangkala. From there it goes down to Dramana Chhu and after crossing
the Dramana Chhu it goes to Dramazingnze. From Dramazingnze it goes
down to the junction of the Gui Chhu and the Tromo Chhu. From there it
goes along the Gui Chhu to Lungkala and then to Tremola. From
Tremola it goes along the ridgeline where there is no dispute. "

"The Chinese, on the other hand, have been going from Gyemochen and
Chela to Amo Chhu and from Amo Chhu to Dolepchen to Phutegang
ridge to Zursumla, Yarila and then to Chundogang and to Lungkala.
Within this their soldiers have been moving about and their livestock
have also been grazing in these areas alongside our livestock. They have
army camps at Phuetegang, Wuchumakhang and Lepola."

@ougoah

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pg. 84
 
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twineedle

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ougoah said:
So since 2002, dispute resolution met with "successful agreements" between China and Bhutan. China constructed roads between 2002 and 2017 in some parts of northern Doklam where Bhutan did not voice a single objection. Therefore the roads constructed were in Chinese territory.

If that wasn't the case, and China constructed roads in still disputed territory (after 2002 settlements and demarcation which resolved parts of the disputes) why would China ask to construct in disputed and want to keep settling disputes like it has done so successfully with bhutan since 2002?

China Bhutan negotiations clearly worked well but wasn't finished in settling all disputes. As soon as China realised it needed a disputed section, it went to Bhutan to ask for deals. If it were so that China always just built on disputed with Bhutan, then why even ask about one tiny connection when it completed hundreds of kilometers of road in disputed? Clearly the completed roads were in China proper and NOT Bhutan but when it did involve Bhutan, China immediately went to them and talked about it to reach deals like the two parties have in the past.
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So why did the Bhutanese government say in a report that the Bhutanese-Sino was at Batang La, north of the roads China started constructing around 2004-2005?
 

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ougoah

Brigadier
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twineedle said:
"The Secretary informed the members that Bhutan’s boundary claim line
starts from the vicinity of Batangla and goes to Merugla and Sinchela.
From there it goes down to Amo Chhu and then to Langmarpo Zam.
From the confluence of Langmarpo Chhu and Amo Chhu, it goes along
Docherimchang from where it goes to Gomla and from Gomla to
Pangkala. From there it goes down to Dramana Chhu and after crossing
the Dramana Chhu it goes to Dramazingnze. From Dramazingnze it goes
down to the junction of the Gui Chhu and the Tromo Chhu. From there it
goes along the Gui Chhu to Lungkala and then to Tremola. From
Tremola it goes along the ridgeline where there is no dispute. "

"The Chinese, on the other hand, have been going from Gyemochen and
Chela to Amo Chhu and from Amo Chhu to Dolepchen to Phutegang
ridge to Zursumla, Yarila and then to Chundogang and to Lungkala.
Within this their soldiers have been moving about and their livestock
have also been grazing in these areas alongside our livestock. They have
army camps at Phuetegang, Wuchumakhang and Lepola."

@ougoah

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pg. 84
Click to expand...

So you are wrong about the roads then?

The Bhutanese never mentioned the Chinese roads in northern Doklam are included in their new claims.

The roads were constructed after Bhutan and China came to agreements in 2002. Bhutan had no objections to completed roads. As soon as China realised connection required actual disputed land, they talked to Bhutan about it in the hopes of negotiating a mutually agreeable swap. India interjected. China rerouted the road to avoid the drama.

What you have quoted here is not where the topic of the road is. There are other stretches of dispute. We're focusing on northern Doklam which you claim is disputed and I have still yet to see evidence of that. Cattle grazing done by both sides on disputed territory is not related to the roads in northern Doklam. This would be like me bringing up India's disputes with Pakistan and Nepal as evidence of India's aggression with China. They are unrelated matters.
 
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twineedle

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ougoah said:
So you are wrong about the roads then?

The Bhutanese never mentioned the Chinese roads in northern Doklam are included in their new claims.

The roads were constructed after Bhutan and China came to agreements in 2002. Bhutan had no objections to completed roads. As soon as China realised connection required actual disputed land, they talked to Bhutan about it in the hopes of negotiating a mutually agreeable swap. India interjected. China rerouted the road to avoid the drama.

What you have quoted here is not where the topic of the road is. There are other stretches of dispute. We're focusing on northern Doklam which you claim is disputed and I have still yet to see evidence of that. Cattle grazing done by both sides on disputed territory is not related to the roads in northern Doklam. This would be like me bringing up India's disputes with Pakistan and Nepal as evidence of India's aggression with China. They are unrelated matters.
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This report was before the roads were built. The point is Bhutan's official claim starts at Batang La. The reason why Bhutan did not raise objections since the roads were completed is because Bhutan is willing to exchange the North for other disputed areas, but China is only willing to exchange for the entire plateau, specifically the South.

Just so we are clear, Batang La is on the northern side of the plateau. The standoff area was SOUTH of Doka La.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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twineedle said:
This report was before the roads were built. The point is Bhutan's official claim starts at Batang La. The reason why Bhutan did not raise objections since the roads were completed is because Bhutan is willing to exchange the North for other disputed areas, but China is only willing to exchange for the entire plateau, specifically the South.

Just so we are clear, Batang La is on the northern side of the plateau. The standoff area was SOUTH of Doka La.
Click to expand...

Do you have google maps coordinates for Batang La?
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
This report was before the roads were built. The point is Bhutan's official claim starts at Batang La. The reason why Bhutan did not raise objections since the roads were completed is because Bhutan is willing to exchange the North for other disputed areas, but China is only willing to exchange for the entire plateau, specifically the South.

Just so we are clear, Batang La is on the northern side of the plateau. The standoff area was SOUTH of Doka La.
Click to expand...

So Bhutan exchanged northern claims to get other disputed areas which they received since they didn't raise objections to northern Doklam roads. When it came to southern Doklam roads, the negotiations were back on and interjected by India. What is wrong with this picture?
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
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ougoah said:
Do you have google maps coordinates for Batang La?
Click to expand...

ougoah said:
So Bhutan exchanged northern claims to get other disputed areas which they received since they didn't raise objections to northern Doklam roads. When it came to southern Doklam roads, the negotiations were back on and interjected by India. What is wrong with this picture?
Click to expand...
Which areas did Bhutan receive in exchange? There are still multiple disputed areas other than doklam. China has refused to exchange them for anything other than South doklam, as Lamsang said in his thread.

Recently China has even offered to "exchange" Sakteng wildlife preserve for South Doklam, even though it doesn't even border China.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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Batang is line 2 to 4 grey border and the northern Doklam road constructions circled in red were done in Bhutan claimed land which Bhutan claims to Batang La.

1627194362478.png

Bhutan was happy to swap northern section for other dispute. This allowed Chinese road construction. When southern section is required, China wanted to negotiate for a similar swap. India interjected at this point.

I don't see what the fuss is, Bhutan claims xyz but settled for a deal in northern Doklam. Southern Doklam deal was left by China once India interjected. China viewed India's interjection as an act against its interests where it was negotiating with Bhutan.
 
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