Ladakh Flash Point

FishWings said:

Give the Tejas some more years (or decades but w/e) to become more mature. Ye the project is way overdue but that's the result of bureaucratic inefficiency (i.e. corruption). I know it's not a fair comparison, but even the J-10 had to start off with Russian engines and missiles of Israeli (PL-8) and Italian (PL-11) origin. Even though it was far more 'indigenous' than Tejas, it was only until the J-10C (or at least later batches of J-10B) could it have been said to be fully 100% indigenous. Again, far from being the best parallel example, but from their perspective it is probably better to start off with the program while using foreign components as interim stopgaps, while they plan for it to be fully indigenous by the time ~Mk3 completes development. If they had to build the plane from scratch, it would be safe to assume that the Tejas would have only existed in the form of technical drawings and bittersweet fan art. But for now it is as domestic as it can realistically get.

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I get what you mean and I agree for the most part that it would take some years if not decades for the fighter to become fully ‘indigenous’ and I am by no mean knocking it for that... I was merely saying that calling it domestic procurement was a bit of a stretch that’s all... considering the majority of the systems are foreign in nature further they are not made in India by license or otherwise... if it was just engines and some weapons then I wouldn’t say it as such

The bureaucratic inefficiency is definitely an issue but the bigger issue is the Indian ambition without substance... the Tejas like the Arjun by all accounts is a political project more so than a technical one... it is national pride and a push for domestic production but the politicians didn’t even want to give it a leg up, even when the politicians have finally given it support, the Indians failed to capitalise. Instead of focusing on production capability which was one of the major push for the Tejas in the first place, they immediately update it and then start dreaming about how amazing the MK 2 would be... just comparing numbers, the they are from wiki so a grain of salt, Tejas first flight in 2001 currently 34 produced, this is including all prototypes, the jf 17 first flight 2003 currently ~150 produced and J 10 first flight 1998 currently 400-500 produced...

Mt1701d said:

To be fair... the Tejas can hardly be called domestic procurement considering pretty much all the major components are procured from foreign companies and a considerable number are not made in India... if we use iPhone ‘production’ in India as an example... It would mean the casing of the iPhone is produced in India... it’s basically a massive jigsaw puzzle assembled by HAL...

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FishWings said:

Give the Tejas some more years (or decades but w/e) to become more mature. Ye the project is way overdue but that's the result of bureaucratic inefficiency (i.e. corruption). I know it's not a fair comparison, but even the J-10 had to start off with Russian engines and missiles of Israeli (PL-8) and Italian (PL-11) origin. Even though it was far more 'indigenous' than Tejas, it was only until the J-10C (or at least later batches of J-10B) could it have been said to be fully 100% indigenous. Again, far from being the best parallel example, but from their perspective it is probably better to start off with the program while using foreign components as interim stopgaps, while they plan for it to be fully indigenous by the time ~Mk3 completes development. If they had to build the plane from scratch, it would be safe to assume that the Tejas would have only existed in the form of technical drawings and bittersweet fan art. But for now it is as domestic as it can realistically get.

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I agree. All indigenous programs with big ambitions will go through their own share of rough times. The J-10s did go through a quite a long phase of using imported components, especially the engine. The Tejas, I'm sure that if developed properly and with honesty. It could evolve into a relatively decent light fighter. Although I appear to enjoy bashing and laughing at the Tejas. I actually think the problem is not Tejas. The problem is India.

The Jai Hinds have zero respect for China and the J-10. They like to call the J-10 reverse-engineered junk. Remember when the the J-10s still had to fly with Russian engines? The Jai Hinds were laughing at the Chinese WS-10 engine program, while praising India's Kaveri engine program to the high heavens. They talk about how India is better than China in this and that. How Tejas is going to murder the J-10. Well it turns out that the J-10 has evolved quite well into the J-10C. Equipped with quite capable indigenous components and weaponry. More importantly, the J-10 is already produced in numbers sufficient to become a workhorse of the PLAAF. So what about their Tejas then? All that ambition. All that boasting. And all they have to show for it is only 34 Tejas Mk1, and another 83 yet-to-built Mk1A variant. All heavily reliant on imported components. All not powered by the Kaveri engine. All quite unremarkable. All overpriced.

So yes, let us laugh at India's failures with the Tejas. They truly deserve it.

FishWings said:

Give the Tejas some more years (or decades but w/e) to become more mature. Ye the project is way overdue but that's the result of bureaucratic inefficiency (i.e. corruption). I know it's not a fair comparison, but even the J-10 had to start off with Russian engines and missiles of Israeli (PL-8) and Italian (PL-11) origin. Even though it was far more 'indigenous' than Tejas, it was only until the J-10C (or at least later batches of J-10B) could it have been said to be fully 100% indigenous. Again, far from being the best parallel example, but from their perspective it is probably better to start off with the program while using foreign components as interim stopgaps, while they plan for it to be fully indigenous by the time ~Mk3 completes development. If they had to build the plane from scratch, it would be safe to assume that the Tejas would have only existed in the form of technical drawings and bittersweet fan art. But for now it is as domestic as it can realistically get.

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That's understandable but, the problem is whenever I read up military hardware articles or videos regarding China, I almost always see comments from Indians saying they're garbage, copies etc which is annoying and ironic considering if you use their logic: the Arjun tank is a shit copy of a Leopard 2 and the Tejas is a Mirage ripoff

As an aircraft, Tejas might not be a failure. It isn't a success either
As an aircraft program, it is absolutely a failure.

As an aircraft program, JF-17 has succeeded.
As an aircraft program, J-10 has delivered.
And Tejas supporters are just defending the indefensible. It is nationalism that forces them to do so and that's understandable.
To compare Tejas with even J-10 is such a sinful act. Because as an aircraft program, J-10 series does so much for China.

WS-10 ( a big engine that sees cross platform action in flanker)
DSI inlets. (unique among single engine fighter other than F35)
AESA radars.
PL-15 integration.
WS-10 TVC testbed.

And a whole lot of only-PLAAF-Knows-what experiments and testing done on the platform.
Surely, J-10 demonstrates the perseverance, planning and execution of China's MIL than anything.
No one with self respect and sense of mind would compare Tejas with J-10.

siegecrossbow said:

J-10A/C, even when using Russian engines, participated in International exercises like Aviadart, Falcon Strike, and Shaheen, held their own against flankers, and intercepted U.S./Taiwanese planes. What has Tejas done to justify the exorbitant cost?

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Land on a carrier I guess

KampfAlwin said:

That's understandable but, the problem is whenever I read up military hardware articles or videos regarding China, I almost always see comments from Indians saying they're garbage, copies etc which is annoying and ironic considering if you use their logic: the Arjun tank is a shit copy of a Leopard 2 and the Tejas is a Mirage ripoff

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Oh ye I agree. Best avoid those comment sections. The grapes are so sour that they melt through my monitor.

And saying the Arjun is a poor copy of the Leo2 is still too much of a compliment for it. In reality it has just been an ongoing disaster since 1972 that just gets progressively worse. It makes the Tejas program look like an outstanding success, even. The original design parameters for it were a ~40 ton class MBT with a 105mm gun, so similar to Type 85-I. Not sure how it ballooned into a 65 ton paper tiger that looks like if high schools students from Germany, UK, and Russia teamed up to design a new MBT.

Also, since my original comment has people thinking I am saying the Tejas is a successful project, no I am not implying that. It still does not justify the costs and of course it is still a failure (although better than Arjun project at least). But for their MIC to start, especially with all the corruption and delusions getting in the way, it has to start somewhere. Suppose that the Mk1 has 80% foreign components and the Mk1A has 70%. As they build up their technical expertise, even if it is built it from disastrous failures, eventually they will reach a point where the aircraft is completely domestically built even if other nations are flying 7th generation planes by then.

But even in the worst case for them where the Tejas never gets to be fully domestically produced, and it gets retired while still being a failure, the experience from failing especially with tons of effort and billions of dollars wasted is still valuable experience. And that experience can still prove to be useful in their future fighter projects, even if it comes in the form of a list of precisely what not to do while designing an aircraft

FishWings said:

But even in the worst case for them where the Tejas never gets to be fully domestically produced, and it gets retired while still being a failure, the experience from failing especially with tons of effort and billions of dollars wasted is still valuable experience. And that experience can still prove to be useful in their future fighter projects, even if it comes in the form of a list of precisely what not to do while designing an aircraft

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I agree if the lessons learned are followed through. The problem is often the technology is so different, so lessons don't apply. Or time is so long, the old folks retired and lessons learned are not past on (this applies to India). So it could just be billions burned for nothing

Sardaukar20 said:

I agree. All indigenous programs with big ambitions will go through their own share of rough times. The J-10s did go through a quite a long phase of using imported components, especially the engine. The Tejas, I'm sure that if developed properly and with honesty. It could evolve into a relatively decent light fighter. Although I appear to enjoy bashing and laughing at the Tejas. I actually think the problem is not Tejas. The problem is India.

The Jai Hinds have zero respect for China and the J-10. They like to call the J-10 reverse-engineered junk. Remember when the the J-10s still had to fly with Russian engines? The Jai Hinds were laughing at the Chinese WS-10 engine program, while praising India's Kaveri engine program to the high heavens. They talk about how India is better than China in this and that. How Tejas is going to murder the J-10. Well it turns out that the J-10 has evolved quite well into the J-10C. Equipped with quite capable indigenous components and weaponry. More importantly, the J-10 is already produced in numbers sufficient to become a workhorse of the PLAAF. So what about their Tejas then? All that ambition. All that boasting. And all they have to show for it is only 34 Tejas Mk1, and another 83 yet-to-built Mk1A variant. All heavily reliant on imported components. All not powered by the Kaveri engine. All quite unremarkable. All overpriced.

So yes, let us laugh at India's failures with the Tejas. They truly deserve it.

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Ye I get your point. I was going to say that we shouldn't degrade to their levels of stupidity, because people going to zoos don't go home and act like the animals they saw. Their 'laughing' is just disguised crying because it's very obviously projection. They invent reasons for why the J-10, JF-17, J-20, etc. are massive failures but ignore all the valid reasons why everything they make gets laughed at by not just Chinese, but also Germans, Americans, Russians, etc. FFS they just spent close to 8 billion Euros (probably even more) to buy 36 jets which probably cannot even reliably take on J-10Cs, yet they tout it as the J-20 killer. So I was going to say that maybe these people actually deserve some sympathy.

But afterwards I also came across a comment section of precisely what you described (actually even worse) and suddenly it changed my mind. Maybe they should have every one of their failures shouted in their faces, preferably with a loudspeaker.

Xsizor said:

WS-10 ( a big engine that sees cross platform action in flanker)
DSI inlets. (unique among single engine fighter other than F35)

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I thought JF-17 also had DSI inlets. In fact, first fighter with DSI to enter service is it not?

FishWings said:

I thought JF-17 also had DSI inlets. In fact, first fighter with DSI to enter service is it not?

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It does but so does other Chinese aircrafts like JL-9 trainer.
Since it is all from China , I'd term J-10 DSI as the definitive product.