Ladakh Flash Point

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Bright Sword

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Bright Sword said:
Actually there are a number of stories in Indian mythology showing the interaction of the Kshatriyas and Brahmins. There is a bit of an overlap in martial prowess.
Wikipedia has a detailed page on Bhishma who led Kauravas in World War 0.
Imparting military training was reserved only for Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Wikipedia has done a wonderful job explaining this.
If you look up Eklavya, and his story you will see how as a self taught archer was beguiled into loosing his thumb so he could no longer use his bow. He was forced to do this because of his low tribal caste since he could not acquire proficiencies in handling of weapons.
Guru Drona ( Look up Wikipedia) ensured that and the prince Arjun he was training would remain the best archer in the realm.
This concept of Kshatriyas and Brahmins being the only ones entitled to military training, was a severe handicap in India's military capabilities. Since only the Kshatriyas and Brahmins were divinely ordained to fight, the rest of the population were incapable and indeed disinterested in fighting. They felt it was " not their job".
When the Kshatriyas failed India failed.
There was no People’s Resistance. The colonial Indian Army under British tutelage was a mercenary force of Kshatriyas and other "martial races", a culture which it retains till today. The only time a real People's Army was attempted devoid of race, religion and culture was during World War 2 by the Subhas Bose called the The Indian National Army comprised of POWs taken by Imperialist Japan, Japan hoped to use the INA as a fifth column to penetrate British ruled India. The INA wanted to use Japan's armed forces to weaken the British into relinquishing India. Ironically post independence the Indian Army didn't like the INAs anti- colonial and pan- combat capabilities stance. The INA had within its ranks all castes including "low caste " Indian origin rubber plantation workers. It was no wonder that the INA was quickly disbanded and the officers and men dismissed and banned from joining the newly independent Indian Armed Forces.
One element of the INA that did rejoin their parent armed forces were those from the area now constituting Pakistan.
They joined the newly formed Pakistan Armed Forces. One reason was that the newly formed PA has no caste or martial law elements.
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The Kshatriya and caste element of Indian military history has had tragic consequences.
In 1192 at the Second Battle of Tarain the Turko-Afghans discovered that a people's resistance in India was unlikely if the main armed forces could be smashed and the princes and commanders executed. Only the divinely ordained Kshatriyas and Brahmins would be fighting which would be a very small portion of the population. But the Turko- Afghans were only re-learning what Alexander the Great had learned in 326 B.C.E when he defeated King Porus and what Mohammed Bin Qasim had learned in 711 C.E. when he defeated Raja Dahir in Sindh. All these battles were lost by Indian generals despite a clear numerical and logistical superiority over the invaders. Once the battles were lost so too were the kingdoms. The curse of a caste based armed forces bedeviled India for the next 900 years. With the notable exception of the Sikhs (who had no castes as such ) armed resistance to foreign invasions were a series of disasters. Indian forces lost to the Greeks, Arabs, Afghans, Turks, Mongols, Mughals, Portuguese, French, and finally the British. Even the so-called Indian Sepoy Mutiny which was supposed to be making a virtue of the religious restrictions ( greased paper cartridges for muzzle loading rifles were deemed offensive) failed disastrously against disciplined British troops who were in far smaller numbers.
Indian forces were tutored by the British for 90 years and were supposed to be a replacement for British manpower. Individual acts of bravery by Sikh and Gurkha elements aside the Indian troops fared badly in battles such as at the Battle of Maiwand ( Second Anglo Afghan War).
The Indian Armed forces performed reasonably well under British officers in World War 1 though in Mesopotamia they suffered badly at the hands of the Turkish Army. World War 2 was similar.
From the late 19th century till 1947 there was no decisive victory in any campaign by a purely Indian officered, Indian led force..
The once in a 1000 year victory ( as admitted) by Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was in 1971 when India intervened in the East Pakistan Civil war and occupied East Pakistan for 60 days after which it became the nation of Bangladesh. India ( with some justification) credits this as a great victory.
But India never had a Battle of Stalingrad or a Hundred Regiment Offensive moment. It has never even had a Dunkirk or Battle of Britain.
There has never been mass resistance and consequently mass suffering. Northern India never even resisted the Mongols who penetrated as far east as Multan and Lahore. The bitter resistance the Mongols faced was from the Turko-Afghan forces of the Delhi Sultanates. The Mongols were dealt a devastating defeat by Alauddin Khilji and his Turko- Afgan troops. Hindu Kshatriyas fought alongside the Turko- Afghans in rare display of unity in the face of a common threat.
 
B

Bright Sword

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BrightFuture said:
Can we go back to talking about the Ladakh? You guys can make a new thread to discuss about Indian society and caste system.

Sorry to be that guy.
Click to expand...
Thanks for reminding. Will stick to the topic. On a different note understand the psyche of the enemy and understanding the mindset is hugely important and a big advantage.
Knowing that Hitler was superstitious and consulted astrologers regularly the Allies in World War 2 hired their own astrologers to predict the enemy strategy. Similarly the allies studied the Japanese Samurai Code of the Bushido to understand the fighting spirit of the Japanese and under what circumstances they would surrender or fight ( a crucial point in the decision to use nuclear weapons).
Understanding the Indian caste systems, the culture of the armed forces, the mythology and how it motivates is extremely important. The US armed forces have studied and discussed Islam and the military doctrine for decades.
Not much is going on in Ladakh for now except a static stand off . This thread may be dormant for a while.
 
Figaro

Figaro

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The pathetic Indian fake news juggernaut strikes back again ... first a downed F-16, then 43 Chinese soldiers killed and 1 PLAAF Su-35 shot down by Taiwan, and now this? Really shows how delusional these folks are.

India buzzes with fake news of 'civil war' in Pakistan
By Abid Hussain
BBC Urdu, Islamabad
Fake news has been widely circulating on Indian sites and social media this week, claiming a civil war had broken out in the Pakistani city of Karachi.

The reports emerged after local Pakistani media said troops had kidnapped the provincial police chief to force him to arrest a top opposition leader.

The story was quickly picked up over the border in Pakistan's arch-rival, India, where reports went much further - saying clashes between the police and the army had resulted in the deaths of many Karachi police officers and tanks had been seen on the streets.

A fake video circulating on Twitter even claimed to show some of the alleged unrest.
In reality, none of it was true.

Many local police and opposition members had been angered by events surrounding the politician's arrest - but there was no violence.
Pakistan and India are bitter enemies and it's well known they have long used propaganda against each other - they have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.

Last year, Facebook blocked networks linked to Pakistan's military and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which had been aimed at influencing decision-making in Europe.

But what's notable this time is the number of verified accounts and apparently reputable news outlets that ended up putting out news that was utterly false, to millions of followers and readers.

'Fighting' in a place that doesn't exist
Tempers seemed to be simmering down when Pakistan's army chief ordered an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the arrest on Tuesday of Safdar Awan, the son-in-law of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

A day earlier there had been a major rally against the government of Pakistan's current Prime Minister Imran Khan in Karachi, an opposition stronghold which is the capital of Sindh province.

But later on Tuesday night a hitherto unknown account tweeted that a fight between troops and police had broken out, with tanks on the streets of Karachi and at least five casualties.

It's unclear who sent this initial tweet. Despite extensive digging by the BBC, it was not possible to establish who operates the Twitter account named @drapr007.

An hour later, the account tweeted again, this time saying: "#BREAKING: Heavy firefight between Pak Army and Sindh Police is going on in Gulshan e Bagh area of #Karachi..."

Those familiar with Karachi would know there is no area there by that name - but most readers would not.
Nor had there been any fighting, or tanks seen on the streets.

However, news of the "civil war" then spread rapidly. A deadly blast in Karachi which turned out to have been caused by a gas leak added fuel to the rumours.

They were picked up by verified individuals and major Indian media outlets such as CNN18, Zee News and India Today.

One user with a verified account, Prashant Patel - whose bio says is an advocate of the Supreme Court of India - went on to put out a series of tweets where he made claims about a "civil war situation" in Karachi, deaths of policemen and soldiers, Prime Minister Imran Khan ordering patriotic songs to be played on the radio, and even the impending arrival of the US Navy in the port of Karachi.

The BBC's Reality Check team looked into some of the accounts and websites - some of them impersonating the Sindh police - which have been spreading false news about the situation in Karachi and found them to have links with India.

The dark and blurry video shows young men walking towards a building with fire visible to one side. They are seen throwing stones and shouting slogans, seemingly against Pakistan's army chief. The BBC was unable to tell if the video had been doctored, or even shot in Pakistan at all.

International Herald was registered under a now-defunct Indian company in 2018. It's had a Twitter account since 2015 which does not follow anyone. Its followers include two leaders of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in India.
'Co-ordinated disinformation'
Mainstream Pakistani media outlets were quick to challenge the Indian media claims with fact-checks.

And Twitter users in Pakistan have had a field day ridiculing the reports, using hashtags such as "CivilwarKarachi", "fakenews" and "Indianmedia" trending on Twitter along with humorous posts and memes.

Renowned singer and actor Fakhr-e-Alam tweeted: "Karachi civil war has gotten so bad that my food panda delivery boy had to crawl through mine fields carrying his AK47, RPG & 9mm along with my nihari and Biryani. This thing is getting so serious."

Writer Bina Shah said: "I live in Karachi, where I just did my groceries, visited the bakery, bought some clothes and came home. If there's a civil war out there I couldn't find it."

Some called the reports a case of "co-ordinated disinformation" by Indian media.

'So biased it does not make sense'
Hartosh Singh Bal, political editor of one of India's most respected news magazines The Caravan told the BBC: "There's a section of media in both countries which is essentially busy playing games, and what they do has little to do with journalism.

"It is so biased that it does not make sense."

Another senior Indian journalist who did not want to be named said projecting a divide between the army and police in Pakistan would fit into the Indian narrative of a Pakistan in decline.

"A quick study of Twitter handles tweeting this misinformation will show that most of them are supporters of or affiliated to the ruling party."

Arslan Khalid, who advises Imran Khan on digital strategy, said it was not the first time that Indian media had run a co-ordinated disinformation campaign against Pakistan.

He questioned Twitter's commitment to its guidelines.

Despite repeated attempts, the BBC was unable to obtain a response from Twitter regarding its policies on fake news.
The BBC's Reality Check and BBC Monitoring both contributed to this report.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Nobonita Barua

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
Figaro said:
The pathetic Indian fake news juggernaut strikes back again ... first a downed F-16, then 43 Chinese soldiers killed and 1 PLAAF Su-35 shot down by Taiwan, and now this? Really shows how delusional these folks are.

India buzzes with fake news of 'civil war' in Pakistan
By Abid Hussain
BBC Urdu, Islamabad
Fake news has been widely circulating on Indian sites and social media this week, claiming a civil war had broken out in the Pakistani city of Karachi.

The reports emerged after local Pakistani media said troops had kidnapped the provincial police chief to force him to arrest a top opposition leader.

The story was quickly picked up over the border in Pakistan's arch-rival, India, where reports went much further - saying clashes between the police and the army had resulted in the deaths of many Karachi police officers and tanks had been seen on the streets.

A fake video circulating on Twitter even claimed to show some of the alleged unrest.
In reality, none of it was true.

Many local police and opposition members had been angered by events surrounding the politician's arrest - but there was no violence.
Pakistan and India are bitter enemies and it's well known they have long used propaganda against each other - they have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.

Last year, Facebook blocked networks linked to Pakistan's military and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which had been aimed at influencing decision-making in Europe.

But what's notable this time is the number of verified accounts and apparently reputable news outlets that ended up putting out news that was utterly false, to millions of followers and readers.

'Fighting' in a place that doesn't exist
Tempers seemed to be simmering down when Pakistan's army chief ordered an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the arrest on Tuesday of Safdar Awan, the son-in-law of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

A day earlier there had been a major rally against the government of Pakistan's current Prime Minister Imran Khan in Karachi, an opposition stronghold which is the capital of Sindh province.

But later on Tuesday night a hitherto unknown account tweeted that a fight between troops and police had broken out, with tanks on the streets of Karachi and at least five casualties.

It's unclear who sent this initial tweet. Despite extensive digging by the BBC, it was not possible to establish who operates the Twitter account named @drapr007.

An hour later, the account tweeted again, this time saying: "#BREAKING: Heavy firefight between Pak Army and Sindh Police is going on in Gulshan e Bagh area of #Karachi..."

Those familiar with Karachi would know there is no area there by that name - but most readers would not.
Nor had there been any fighting, or tanks seen on the streets.

However, news of the "civil war" then spread rapidly. A deadly blast in Karachi which turned out to have been caused by a gas leak added fuel to the rumours.

They were picked up by verified individuals and major Indian media outlets such as CNN18, Zee News and India Today.

One user with a verified account, Prashant Patel - whose bio says is an advocate of the Supreme Court of India - went on to put out a series of tweets where he made claims about a "civil war situation" in Karachi, deaths of policemen and soldiers, Prime Minister Imran Khan ordering patriotic songs to be played on the radio, and even the impending arrival of the US Navy in the port of Karachi.

The BBC's Reality Check team looked into some of the accounts and websites - some of them impersonating the Sindh police - which have been spreading false news about the situation in Karachi and found them to have links with India.

The dark and blurry video shows young men walking towards a building with fire visible to one side. They are seen throwing stones and shouting slogans, seemingly against Pakistan's army chief. The BBC was unable to tell if the video had been doctored, or even shot in Pakistan at all.

International Herald was registered under a now-defunct Indian company in 2018. It's had a Twitter account since 2015 which does not follow anyone. Its followers include two leaders of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in India.
'Co-ordinated disinformation'
Mainstream Pakistani media outlets were quick to challenge the Indian media claims with fact-checks.

And Twitter users in Pakistan have had a field day ridiculing the reports, using hashtags such as "CivilwarKarachi", "fakenews" and "Indianmedia" trending on Twitter along with humorous posts and memes.

Renowned singer and actor Fakhr-e-Alam tweeted: "Karachi civil war has gotten so bad that my food panda delivery boy had to crawl through mine fields carrying his AK47, RPG & 9mm along with my nihari and Biryani. This thing is getting so serious."

Writer Bina Shah said: "I live in Karachi, where I just did my groceries, visited the bakery, bought some clothes and came home. If there's a civil war out there I couldn't find it."

Some called the reports a case of "co-ordinated disinformation" by Indian media.

'So biased it does not make sense'
Hartosh Singh Bal, political editor of one of India's most respected news magazines The Caravan told the BBC: "There's a section of media in both countries which is essentially busy playing games, and what they do has little to do with journalism.

"It is so biased that it does not make sense."

Another senior Indian journalist who did not want to be named said projecting a divide between the army and police in Pakistan would fit into the Indian narrative of a Pakistan in decline.

"A quick study of Twitter handles tweeting this misinformation will show that most of them are supporters of or affiliated to the ruling party."

Arslan Khalid, who advises Imran Khan on digital strategy, said it was not the first time that Indian media had run a co-ordinated disinformation campaign against Pakistan.

He questioned Twitter's commitment to its guidelines.

Despite repeated attempts, the BBC was unable to obtain a response from Twitter regarding its policies on fake news.
The BBC's Reality Check and BBC Monitoring both contributed to this report.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...
So that was pinnacle of misinformation capability between these 2 ? :rolleyes:
 
SPOOPYSKELETON

SPOOPYSKELETON

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don’t EVER let a brahmin-privileged turmeric monster lecture you about POC, colonialism, racial equality, or representation. remind them that when lord Indra arrived on the ganges in his chariot to slaughter 6 million dasyu aboriginals, the first word he said was 'namaste'
 
Nobonita Barua

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
Bright Sword said:
Thanks for reminding. Will stick to the topic. On a different note understand the psyche of the enemy and understanding the mindset is hugely important and a big advantage.
Knowing that Hitler was superstitious and consulted astrologers regularly the Allies in World War 2 hired their own astrologers to predict the enemy strategy. Similarly the allies studied the Japanese Samurai Code of the Bushido to understand the fighting spirit of the Japanese and under what circumstances they would surrender or fight ( a crucial point in the decision to use nuclear weapons).
Understanding the Indian caste systems, the culture of the armed forces, the mythology and how it motivates is extremely important. The US armed forces have studied and discussed Islam and the military doctrine for decades.
Not much is going on in Ladakh for now except a static stand off . This thread may be dormant for a while.
Click to expand...
I agree studying culture, social structure is of absolute importance to gauge your adversary.

However, putting history of india side by side with Japanese samurai code would be a disgrace. And you are talking about US military studying Islam. Compared to titanium that is Islam, history of india is like wet sand. They are & have been there to be molded by their dear aryan fair blue eyed tall aryan lords.

The reasoning only works if the party you are studying presents a significant obstacle. Has india ever been a significant obstacle to any? On contrary it's a favorite puppy of west even now.

That study requires you have the correct understanding of social structure of the party you have been challenged by. Clearly you can see the sutdy of Islam by US military has gotten them nowhere because they went in typical western style interfering with political structure & in the process they stepped on the tail of freaking Godzilla.
 
N

N00B

New Member
Registered Member
This is going in circles and has no connection to this thread's topic. So this will be my last post (I swear) on this.

Inst said:
The caste system is partially blamed on the British because the caste system ossified under their rule to make India simpler to govern.
Click to expand...

Anglos are responsible for a lot of things. Caste isn't one of them. It's Indian RW propaganda to blame Anglo rule for caste. The caste system was set in place way before 1757. The one area where the Anglos indeed pulled no punches in India was religion - Hindu vs. Muslim.

Inst said:
When you bring up A.D 500, well, I can bring up Harsha, an Indian king of North India in around A.D. 600, who happened to be a Brahmin.
Click to expand...

Well that actually reinforces my point then innit? I brought up 500 AD to make a point that caste perhaps was based on profession in the past. But today it's entirely hereditary. Which brings us to the next, and the key point in this whole argument...

Inst said:
Another example is when I'm talking about Kshatriya domination over Brahmins as an alternative.
Click to expand...

For the umpteenth time, when you say 'Kshatriya', they are just another hereditary caste. So when you make them an 'alternative' you are actually legitimizing the caste system - as if 'Kshatriyas' are 'born' with some special skills. That's the key contention.

This is the reason why I brought up 'national entrance exams' in my very first post in this exchange. That's the only way you can select actual competent people. Since UCs have an unfair privilege in access to education on average, India uses reservation for Dalits and other backward castes to level the field somewhat. It isn't perfect but it's better than 'Kshatriya alternative'

Inst said:
But North Indian Kshatriya actually have socioeconomic dominance over Brahmins in their region. Not only are they not present at all in Tamil Nadu and parts of the Indian south, but they're actually socioeconomically dominant up there in North India.
Click to expand...
Inst said:
But you didn't even pick up on Kshatriya domination in North India.
Click to expand...

What Kshatriya domination in North India?! What are you on about?

Inst said:
As far as the failure of Brahmins go, my criticism of my Brahmin friend is over his refusal to get his hands dirty, I've brought this up as a criticism of Brahmins insofar as Chinese Shidafu / Scholar-Literati did the same damn thing in the past, devaluing physical labor. The gentleman definitely did his job as a GoI employee, but the criticism is basically over Kshatriya values, i.e, putting himself into the real danger of contracting COVID-19.

IIRC, there was a gentleman in India who despite his FC status, was also the head of an Indian food charity. This man apparently personally delivered food to the families camped outside the hospitals treating their loved ones. What I can't remember, unfortunately (this news story was months back), is whether he was a Kshatriya or a Brahmin, but he was either one. If it was the latter, it was definitely an exception to my criticism, but if it was the former...
Click to expand...

So one anecdotal evidence is countered (or not) by another. Great.

Inst said:
As to other comments, my interest in India basically began after Galwan
Click to expand...

Well...

Inst said:
Before my research began, I had this conception of India as being the "spiritual" and "intellectual" high water mark of human achievement.
Click to expand...

So until year 2020 you thought "India as being the "spiritual" and "intellectual" high water mark of human achievement"? Really? Not a third world hellhole? Talk about being late on receiving the memo.
 
D

Deleted member 14819

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I recommend people here talking about indian caste system to read Ambedkar's essential works like Caste in India and Who were the shudras if you are really into the caste system and hope you guys drop this topic from now
 
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