Ladakh Flash Point

Maxef208 said:

They think this is acceptable because the countries they idolize do this. USA and UK committed many horrible crimes across the world, but still talk like they are saviors of humanity and tries to constantly remind the world of this. The US and UK has therefore given little exposure to India, it kinda reminds it of itself mask off without pretentious notions of moral integrity and without any real world power, just hate and needing to murder other peoples in order to keep their own people from doing it among themselves but no ability to do so.

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When it comes to the Europeans, it was comitting evil for conquest. They didn't always enjoy it. Evil for conquest and maintaining status. The Chinese have been looted, raped and pillaged throughout history (the first victims of the Mongols) and we are this way because we are not very combative or good at being combative. Chinese especially southerners are generally too soft, weak, and magnanimous when it comes to these things. We're good at counting and saving pennies but totally pound foolish. All that's built up will be destroyed by those who are combative and naturally better at it. Since the Mongols took over, things have become a little more different but to get back on point, Indians commit these evils and dream about doing it as some form of proof to themselves that they are "worthy".

They don't do it for conquest or material gains like the Europeans, they are motivated by their inferiority complex and deep trauma at centuries of bloody rule by the British and millennia of rule by Muslims. They have something to prove to themselves and the world. Which explains why Indians are super sensitive about their progress and take much effort at slandering others like China, a nation who was where they were 100 years ago and have long since left them in the sewers.

ougoah said:

When it comes to the Europeans, it was comitting evil for conquest. They didn't always enjoy it. Evil for conquest and maintaining status. The Chinese have been looted, raped and pillaged throughout history (the first victims of the Mongols) and we are this way because we are not very combative or good at being combative. Chinese especially southerners are generally too soft, weak, and magnanimous when it comes to these things. We're good at counting and saving pennies but totally pound foolish. All that's built up will be destroyed by those who are combative and naturally better at it. Since the Mongols took over, things have become a little more different but to get back on point, Indians commit these evils and dream about doing it as some form of proof to themselves that they are "worthy".

They don't do it for conquest or material gains like the Europeans, they are motivated by their inferiority complex and deep trauma at centuries of bloody rule by the British and millennia of rule by Muslims. They have something to prove to themselves and the world. Which explains why Indians are super sensitive about their progress and take much effort at slandering others like China, a nation who was where they were 100 years ago and have long since left them in the sewers.

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Idk if you should go with that narrative, China just seems to be a believer that you don't need warfare if there are other ways to acquire what you need and leaves others alone unless they become an enemy. The Mongols weren't idiots, so I wouldn't hype China's defeat at their hands or downplay how long China resisted which was longer than most. Han China also rebelled and won itself back from it's conquerors and now they live in a Han led China once more.

But anyway. I don't think India is going to get rid of that trauma by hating China, that's not the people or nation they should be putting down, but should be working with. It's always been strange for me to see Indian nationalists try to buddy up with Brits and Americans as if they are such similar people's because these are the people and nations that had caused that trauma. I see it as a form of stockholm syndrome and I think like many colonized people, Imperial mercy is seen as kindness and kindness is seen as weakness.

Maxef208 said:

Idk if you should go with that narrative, China just seems to be a believer that you don't need warfare if there are other ways to acquire what you need and leaves others alone unless they become an enemy. The Mongols weren't idiots, so I wouldn't hype China's defeat at their hands or downplay how long China resisted which was longer than most. Han China also rebelled and won itself back from it's conquerors and now they live in a Han led China once more.

But anyway. I don't think India is going to get rid of that trauma by hating China, that's not the people or nation they should be putting down, but should be working with. It's always been strange for me to see Indian nationalists try to buddy up with Brits and Americans as if they are such similar people's because these are the people and nations that had caused that trauma. I see it as a form of stockholm syndrome and I think like many colonized people, Imperial mercy is seen as kindness and kindness is seen as weakness.

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Mongols certainly weren't idiots. They conquered more than half of the Eurasian plate. Chinese resisted and resisted well but Chinese people just seem to me like we are less capable of the sort of violence the Japanese for example are comfortable with. It doesn't compare. It's not to say Chinese can't fight or aren't also capable of violence, just not crushing babies with farming equipment for fun and experimenting on live humans depraved.

The Indians are raping their way through Kashmir. There is a village where every woman between certain ages were raped. Indian army habitually tie unarmed men to the front of their jeeps and drive around, enjoying the fear and torture it is bringing to the victim. They are absolute scum and there is no punishment too unkind for these people. There is a certain level of sadism that the Indians seem to possess and it is reflected in how they treat even their own. The world is blind to Indian depravity because the West don't badmouth their boys.

I think Chinese people and diaspora just need to wake TF up. We have millions upon millions of misinformed Chinese liberals and even more who are willfully ignorant. There is a billion Jai Hinds praying for misery upon Chinese and celebrating every little setback. For that alone, I'd say some Mongol attitudes are in order to serve as "God's punishment" again. If the Chinese people and CCP can finally stop playing their penny pinching game "towards reclaiming its old prestige" and actually get off its superiority complex high horse, maybe it can finally get there. It requires guts and courage not just perpetual bide your time hide your strength and "do the right thing". Mass produce nukes and retaliate every attack. Right now China's just taking blow after blow and have seemingly nothing to show for any of that.

India is buddying up with Israel and by extension, the nations who created Israel and continue to support it. It's buddying up with the Judeo Christian group and you're thinking from intuition. The last time India had any hope to not be yet another one of Israel's global henchmen was back before the Sino-Indian war but the British elitist attitudes of Indian leaders sealed the fate of India China relations for the rest of this struggle. It won't change until people solve the universal problems.

@Brumby No I don't agree with the idea that China needs 220 ballistic missiles to 'close down a base for 24 hours'.

Historically, to attack airbases, cruise missiles are a tried and tested tool. Not only that, it is the chosen method of NATO forces. The PLARF has cruise missiles like the CJ-10 missile family. These missiles have TERCOM to help them navigate through the mountainous terrain to their target, giving them valuable stealth. If the PLARF must use their ballistic missiles, these should only be reserved for high value targets such as the command & control centers, ammunition depot, fuel depot, and radar stations. Soft targets like the runway, and exposed aircraft should be targeted by cruise missiles fitted with cluster munitions, or thermobaric warheads. Then hard targets like bunkers and hardened hangars should be targeted by cruise missiles with bunker-busting warheads. This is not to mention that the PLAAF could also be joining in on the operation by using their own CJ-10 cruise missiles, glide bombs, and drones. There is also the PLA ground forces with their superior artillery to the IA to hit the Indian airbases closest to the border.

The biggest flaw with many military analysts, especially Indian ones is that they only look at some particular weapon systems (like the Rafale), tactic, local region, etc and claim that India has 'superiority here, and there'. Professionals always look at the entire operation. They never come to the conclusion of: 'Rafale defeating the whole PLAAF'.

So, do the Indians have weapons to strike PLAAF airbases? Off-course, but not as great as they imagine it will be.

First is the much-celebrated Mach 3.0, 500km ranged Brahmos. Using the Brahmos to hit Chinese air bases sounds like a great idea. Or is it? The Brahmos is designed for naval warfare; to operate in the open sea, not in mountainous terrain. I doubt it will fly around mountains like dedicated cruise missiles at Mach 3.0. Most likely it'll fly a lofted trajectory to hit its target, giving the Chinese air defense the opportunity to spot and intercept these relatively large missiles. Plus, since the Brahmos is essentially an AshM, it'll most likely be equipped with armour piercing warhead, not suitable for peppering large areas like an airbase.

Then of course there are the Spice 1000/2000 standoff bombs, SCALP missiles, and the Nirbhay cruise missiles. These would represent a more serious threat. But these are relatively new weapons in the Indian arsenal. So it is unlikely India has large stockpiles of these toys. Not only that, restocking them during a war is not going to be a swift and easy ordeal.

Which ever way, I just can't see India winning a missile and artillery fight with China. In a war scenario, I can only see the Indians firing the first shot, trying to catch the Chinese by surprise. The Chinese could see this coming, but India must be proven beyond doubt to be the aggressor. So unfortunately their munitions need to land on Chinese territory for that to happen. This would give China the casus belli to retaliate with overwhelming force. The IAF could do some hurt to the PLAAF, but the PLAAF can cripple the IAF in India's Northern region.

To all people, I think this is why it's precisely a waste of time to argue with Indian nationalists.

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Well, that's what happens with 31% of your children are developmentally stunted due to chronic malnutrition. ()

Do not take Indian nationalist seriously.

Sardaukar20 said:

@Brumby No I don't agree with the idea that China needs 220 ballistic missiles to 'close down a base for 24 hours'.

Historically, to attack airbases, cruise missiles are a tried and tested tool. Not only that, it is the chosen method of NATO forces. The PLARF has cruise missiles like the CJ-10 missile family. These missiles have TERCOM to help them navigate through the mountainous terrain to their target, giving them valuable stealth. If the PLARF must use their ballistic missiles, these should only be reserved for high value targets such as the command & control centers, ammunition depot, fuel depot, and radar stations. Soft targets like the runway, and exposed aircraft should be targeted by cruise missiles fitted with cluster munitions, or thermobaric warheads. Then hard targets like bunkers and hardened hangars should be targeted by cruise missiles with bunker-busting warheads. This is not to mention that the PLAAF could also be joining in on the operation by using their own CJ-10 cruise missiles, glide bombs, and drones. There is also the PLA ground forces with their superior artillery to the IA to hit the Indian airbases closest to the border.

The biggest flaw with many military analysts, especially Indian ones is that they only look at some particular weapon systems (like the Rafale), tactic, local region, etc and claim that India has 'superiority here, and there'. Professionals always look at the entire operation. They never come to the conclusion of: 'Rafale defeating the whole PLAAF'.

So, do the Indians have weapons to strike PLAAF airbases? Off-course, but not as great as they imagine it will be.

First is the much-celebrated Mach 3.0, 500km ranged Brahmos. Using the Brahmos to hit Chinese air bases sounds like a great idea. Or is it? The Brahmos is designed for naval warfare; to operate in the open sea, not in mountainous terrain. I doubt it will fly around mountains like dedicated cruise missiles at Mach 3.0. Most likely it'll fly a lofted trajectory to hit its target, giving the Chinese air defense the opportunity to spot and intercept these relatively large missiles. Plus, since the Brahmos is essentially an AshM, it'll most likely be equipped with armour piercing warhead, not suitable for peppering large areas like an airbase.

Then of course there are the Spice 1000/2000 standoff bombs, SCALP missiles, and the Nirbhay cruise missiles. These would represent a more serious threat. But these are relatively new weapons in the Indian arsenal. So it is unlikely India has large stockpiles of these toys. Not only that, restocking them during a war is not going to be a swift and easy ordeal.

Which ever way, I just can't see India winning a missile and artillery fight with China. In a war scenario, I can only see the Indians firing the first shot, trying to catch the Chinese by surprise. The Chinese could see this coming, but India must be proven beyond doubt to be the aggressor. So unfortunately their munitions need to land on Chinese territory for that to happen. This would give China the casus belli to retaliate with overwhelming force. The IAF could do some hurt to the PLAAF, but the PLAAF can cripple the IAF in India's Northern region.

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The Nirhbay is still a work in progress and about as capable as the long retired silkworm cruise missile at evading radars and managing terrain.

The Brahmos is the most impressive on paper but it is large and relatively straightforward. It isn't stealthy, it isn't small, it isn't smart, and it can't handle tricky terrain, it flies high but it flies fast. China's got a handful of missiles similar to the Brahmos but the Chinese YJ-12B and YJ-91 are purpose built mach 2-4 land attack variants. The utility of Brahmos to the Indians is covered by so many overlapping Chinese direct equivalents or alternatives like LACMs of which there are already so many types and sub-variants while the Indians are still scratching their heads on how to solve the Nirbhay's problems.

A war between the Indians and China would be like comparing India's smart phone industry to that of China's. There's no serious comparison. It's a freaking joke we're all entertaining. India buying a few iPhones (Rafales) and giving them an Indian flag paintjob doesn't change anything.

Nobonita Barua said:

What trauma?

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The Brits took basically everything of value that wasn't nailed down, destroyed Indian industries and competitive leading ones too (fabrics and shipbuilding for example), murdered hundreds of thousands directly and caused a famine that killed millions. I'd say that's trauma at least it has an impact on national psyche. Meanwhile China and India have traded peacefully via sea routes for millennia and exchanged cultures and ideas in relative harmony. That is or I should say was the natural order of things before the industrial revolution's disruptions. European conquests in the distant past still have rippling effects till this day.

Muslim rule was for much longer even if it were less bloody and more dignified. The Brits took away India's dignity, something Chinese people have always condemned and continue to. Contrast this with Indians joking with glee about Chinese being raped by Japanese soldiers. That's the maturity and humanity we're dealing with. The modern day political SJWs and liberals who call anyone who doesn't toe the imperialist's line, "CCP troll" or "50c army" or "bootlicker" are also often surprisingly inhumane and carry a sinister nasty streak. It's a curious thing. Fictional or exaggerated CCP "crimes" are bashed while legitimate malevolence is brushed off or made into a joke.

I'm pretty sure Indians say outrageous things to dehumanize Chinese is because Westerners used to do that too, and you know how Indians want to be like Westerners (brain drain H1B, wanting to lighter skin, worshipping West).

They (India and West) cannot fathom how Chinese is able to advance so quickly. That's why you see comments on YT like "Made in China poor quality" even today, even though iPhones, TVs, computers are all made in China with very good quality (things change in the past 10 years) while their minds is still Cold war era mindset or outdated/obsolete.

KEEP ON GROWING CHINA. Growth will shut them up in no time. Plus a little reminder of China's power here and there.

ougoah said:

Mongols certainly weren't idiots. They conquered more than half of the Eurasian plate. Chinese resisted and resisted well but Chinese people just seem to me like we are less capable of the sort of violence the Japanese for example are comfortable with. It doesn't compare. It's not to say Chinese can't fight or aren't also capable of violence, just not crushing babies with farming equipment for fun and experimenting on live humans depraved.

The Indians are raping their way through Kashmir. There is a village where every woman between certain ages were raped. Indian army habitually tie unarmed men to the front of their jeeps and drive around, enjoying the fear and torture it is bringing to the victim. They are absolute scum and there is no punishment too unkind for these people. There is a certain level of sadism that the Indians seem to possess and it is reflected in how they treat even their own. The world is blind to Indian depravity because the West don't badmouth their boys.

I think Chinese people and diaspora just need to wake TF up. We have millions upon millions of misinformed Chinese liberals and even more who are willfully ignorant. There is a billion Jai Hinds praying for misery upon Chinese and celebrating every little setback. For that alone, I'd say some Mongol attitudes are in order to serve as "God's punishment" again. If the Chinese people and CCP can finally stop playing their penny pinching game "towards reclaiming its old prestige" and actually get off its superiority complex high horse, maybe it can finally get there. It requires guts and courage not just perpetual bide your time hide your strength and "do the right thing". Mass produce nukes and retaliate every attack. Right now China's just taking blow after blow and have seemingly nothing to show for any of that.

India is buddying up with Israel and by extension, the nations who created Israel and continue to support it. It's buddying up with the Judeo Christian group and you're thinking from intuition. The last time India had any hope to not be yet another one of Israel's global henchmen was back before the Sino-Indian war but the British elitist attitudes of Indian leaders sealed the fate of India China relations for the rest of this struggle. It won't change until people solve the universal problems.

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I fully agree with this. The CPC has not really taken the Indian threat seriously enough. Too much attention is spent on the Asia Pacific front. I'am 100% certain that if China is weakened, or if attacked by the US & friends, India under this fascist BJP govt will attack China. Can't the CPC see that India is never-ever a friendly nation? The fascist BJP govt has an approval rating of 70% from the Indian people. This hostility is going to stay for good. India is on a warpath with China. And the Chinese govt is still 'urging India to get back on the right path'. If the Indians had really 'won' the Galwan clash, it would have been a hot war already. They would no doubt try to 'press the advantage'.

The PLA has force superiority on the Indian land border. But one of my biggest gripe about China is their severe lack of presence in the Indian Ocean. The Indians have repeatedly threatened to shut the Malacca Straits. Regardless of how superior the PLAN is to the IN, this is a terrible strategic weakness that can be exploited. PLAN needs to form a true Indian Ocean fleet NOW. Relying on the Pakistan Navy would foolish, because of they just won't have the means to throw out the IN at the Andaman Sea. IN cannot be confronted with just Type 054A frigates, a full fleet of destroyers and submarines is sorely needed there. If the Indians decide to go on an adventure in Ladakh, they would almost certainly send the IN to block the Malacca Straits. Where to base this Indian Ocean Fleet? For now it can be based in Djibouti, Pakistan, or Iran. But there must be efforts to try to get Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and most importantly Indonesia to allow basing of PLAN fleets at their ports. Why Indonesia is most important? Basing the PLAN fleet at Sumatra would give the PLAN a naval base in the Indian Ocean some good distance away from the Indian mainland, but close enough to intercept the IN in the Andaman Sea. It would be a nice 'fleet in being'.

The Nuclear front is my other gripe. I think China is not taking India (and the USA) seriously enough here. The BJP Indian govt is mad enough to go nuclear in desperation. They threatened Pakistan with nukes when they got slapped by the PAF on 27th Feb 2019. But pulled back because surprise surprise, Pakistan has nukes too. India always boasts about their Agni IV and Agni V nuking Beijing and Shanghai. China needs to seriously beef up its nuclear arsenal. At least 150 warheads should be reserved just for India. All thermonuclear. Put them on IRBMs and SLBMs that puts New Delhi on extremely short notice on launch. These BJP leaders don't mind that average Indians die from nuclear attacks, just that they themselves don't die from it. Let them know clearly that there are nukes for destined for their asses. So no nuclear monkey business, or else!

China needs to stop treating India as if it were a sane country. India is not Japan, Australia, South Korea, etc. India under the BJP do not have a rational foreign policy. China is being played a fool with India. They think India would appreciate goodwill, generosity, and respect. No they don't. They behave more like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, minus the competence. The Soviet Union under Stalin tried to appease Nazi Germany, what they got in return is Operation Barbarossa. China's naivety with foreign policy can be infuriating at times. Whats the point of all the wealth? If a robber with a gun can steal them from you.

Phead128 said:

I'm pretty sure Indians say outrageous things to dehumanize Chinese is because Westerners used to do that too, and you know how Indians want to be like Westerners (brain drain H1B, wanting to lighter skin, worshipping West).

They (India and West) cannot fathom how Chinese is able to advance so quickly. That's why you see comments on YT like "Made in China poor quality" even today, even though iPhones, TVs, computers are all made in China with very good quality (things change in the past 10 years) while their minds is still Cold war era mindset or outdated/obsolete.

KEEP ON GROWING CHINA. Growth will shut them up in no time. Plus a little reminder of China's power here and there.

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I wouldn't even call it cold war but outright colonial caste system. Some Indians like some HKers feel that since they lived under British rule they were "more civilized" and somehow inherited cultural and civilization traits from the Brits that made them "superior" to others and should be better off or capable.