Ladakh Flash Point

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twineedle

Junior Member
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With much clearer hindsight after this Ladakh crisis, I've become more aware of how much we have (in this forum and of course the Indian side) been exaggerating the importance of this whole regional crisis. There is a lot of noise on this issue from India and Indian based english speaking sources, publications, and individuals. Beyond this, the west actually did not mention it much at all and don't seem to care much for it either AND neither have the Chinese even though they are 1 of 2 participants in this crisis.

I've noticed that it could simply be the case where China just wanted to stop India's increased presence within that 20% remaining dispute. Went in stopped it and if not for all the noise and gossip India has been producing on this topic, Chinese side would have left it all alone. India last month wanted to make fake news about how they captured 100 or 200 PLA soldiers on Tawang and so released the photos showing how badly beaten the Indians were during Galwan clash and the captives. This shut the Indians up and forced the Indian gov to issue official statements to deny and debunk Indian fake news in fear of further embarrassing material being released by China.

Now China does still have the problem of Indian soldiers still being present within some smaller sections of the 20% that has yet to be resolved. However it is entirely possible that the importance of this is much lower on the priority list for CPC than we assume here. Maybe the CPC is thinking okay the situation is mostly contained and controlled and de-escalated, chance for resource consuming war is lower and India is not threatening to take over the 20% or make patrols on Aksai Chin so that initial main threat is resolved unless India escalates which means we'd have to re-engage but if they don't, we got bigger matters to focus on such as ... progress and development.

The only "upset" to all this calming down in the last year was India's noise making and fake news. The talks reached equilibrium with China playing out all its leverage and bargaining power to secure signed buffer deals from India and the rest like I said could simply be acceptable. India was nearly taking over the 20% with de facto control in Jan 2020. Now it has some token temporary positions with most of it India agreeing not to patrol anymore. Threat on Aksai Chin reduced and PLA required to meet Indian patrols not needed.

China does its usual long game (like the salami slicing used in the past after 1962) where it holds talks with Bhutan on the Doklam issue and where it simply continues its claims on AP so long as India claims AC (this is the Tawang patrols form).
Patrolling alone does not establish De facto control. In order to establish control, patrols have to be paired with infrastructure or permanent constructions such as camps. In terms of infrastructure, China definitely had the advantage over the past few decades, and still does, though to a lesser extent.

While it does have some debateable claims, the article I posted earlier today made a good point that prior to 2020 India had little permanent presence such as infrastructure and camps along the lac. Nos that has changed, and India has camps and infra such as roads and bridges in areas along the lac that were previously unoccupied, including within the disputed areas. Both sides agreed not to patrol the buffer zones, but as has been mentioned before those only constitute a relatively small part of the disputed areas. The big change is for the first time India has permanent presence and camps in the disputed areas that were unoccupied by either side prior to 2020.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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Patrolling alone does not establish De facto control. In order to establish control, patrols have to be paired with infrastructure or permanent constructions such as camps. In terms of infrastructure, China definitely had the advantage over the past few decades, and still does, though to a lesser extent.

That is very much up for debate. China clearly think Indian presence and patrolling could result in de facto control. At least something they don't even want to risk and take chances on.

Infrastructure building within the remaining 20% dispute was not done at all until the Chinese road from F8 to F5 area. This was unprecedented and India responded fairly with building inside it as well. I would say both sides have similar advantage if anything India probably has a slight advantage just because infrastructure building with camps and roads and bridges is easy stuff and Indian population centres and construction industry is located much closer to this 20%.

While it does have some debateable claims, the article I posted earlier today made a good point that prior to 2020 India had little permanent presence such as infrastructure and camps along the lac. Nos that has changed, and India has camps and infra such as roads and bridges in areas along the la c that were previously unoccupied, including within the disputed areas. Both sides agreed not to patrol the buffer zones, but as has been mentioned before those only constitute a relatively small part of the disputed areas.

Well any presence is regarded as a threat by China right. Just like Chinese presence within 20% is regarded as a threat by India. If both sides were fine with temporary positions held within this 20%, they wouldn't have worked on mutual disengagements of troops and forced the other to negotiate on stuff they want in return for stuff the other wants.

Buffer right now does only constitute a part of the 20% remaining dispute. I wouldn't call it a small part since we don't know the specifics. It would be small parts which is just the Pangong Fingers, Galwan parts, and Gogra, Hot springs etc, making up much less than 50% of the 20% but who knows. For now we get that China is trying to get India to formally agree on total buffer. This hasn't happened yet and remains to be seen whether India would ever even agree to it. China is out of leverage it seems. It is playing Bhutan talks and reminding India that it can open up Tawang front (but hasn't and probably has no real desire to) in an effort to get Indians to sign total buffer, thereby totally sealing off Aksai Chin from Indian access. If China uses force to achieve this, buffer agreements it secured from India will break down and allow Indians loose again.

It is a stalemate situation basically BUT at least a stable situation and one where Indians are not patrolling many parts of the 20% and certainly not touching Aksai Chin. It now also is such that both sides don't meet for clashes. China wants this western front to be stable and calm. You and I both know China's real intentions and focuses on military matters are solely about countering US aggression and ensuring Taiwan doesn't declare independence because if Taiwan does declare independence, China basically has to move on its word to reunify with force. It doesn't want to risk that and it doesn't want to destroy the island in that process. China's only real security concern is over any potential war it would be forced into if Taiwan declares independence from mainland and the US involvement if any. These are where its genuine efforts and attention are. Western front with India is a nuisance but still one of sovereignty, hence action. China didn't want to be bothered there and doesn't want to be bothered there. Modi's India has been talking about taking over Aksai Chin and Hindu Rashtras and Mother India etc etc for years. Paying with blood to reunify india and so on with those hindutva narratives. Modi is also ruling a country that is a total failure.

Every metric shows India is incompetent and a failure of a country. People forced to walk 1000s of kilometers on foot with no public transport support. No social services and security. Starvation, poverty, lack of sanitation, lack of improved water the list is endless. Modi is the one that wanted to play up narratives and chauvinism for unity and pride. He also wanted to distract from his screw ups.

India since 2018 has been falling apart. Student protests across the country with journalists jailed and killed along with protestors killed. Growing wealth inequality that eventually manifested into farmer protests as well. Then you have the Hindu vs Muslim divisions and small separatist groups and Communist groups too which the ruling elites and social elites consider threats to their power, wealth, and status. Whatever though, all of those are India's own problems to confront and resolve themselves how they see fit. All I'm saying is Modi was trying to govern a mess of a country and his other men have been talking about "retaking" Indian land with Indian blood.

India was the one who thought it a good idea to take some land in Ladakh while they thought China was going to be overrun by a pandemic and distracted to respond to India in Jan 2020. India was also the one who unilaterally revoked Article 370. It is the actor and initiator of destabilisation. China only wants this boring front with unstable losers to be calm and no dramas while it focuses on development. China does not want war because war does not pay unless you are the USA where you can print money at will and tell everyone how much of their stuff the paper is worth. No other country benefits from war.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Patrolling alone does not establish De facto control. In order to establish control, patrols have to be paired with infrastructure or permanent constructions such as camps. In terms of infrastructure, China definitely had the advantage over the past few decades, and still does, though to a lesser extent.

While it does have some debateable claims, the article I posted earlier today made a good point that prior to 2020 India had little permanent presence such as infrastructure and camps along the lac. Nos that has changed, and India has camps and infra such as roads and bridges in areas along the lac that were previously unoccupied, including within the disputed areas. Both sides agreed not to patrol the buffer zones, but as has been mentioned before those only constitute a relatively small part of the disputed areas. The big change is for the first time India has permanent presence and camps in the disputed areas that were unoccupied by either side prior to 2020.
So what you are implying is that prior to India constructing its much necessary infrastructure, India didn't even hold control of regions that were not claimed by China?

Interesting.

India does not have permanent presence in "disputed areas" ( unless you are of the opinion that China had claims far beyond what is today). Again, feel free to list the regions India "gained". I'm ofcourse, putting aside the shoddy logic you apply here.

If little Johnny never wiped his ass after taking a poo-poo but one day decides to start doing it And then claims that he usually didn't stink but he wiped it anyways and that makes him better than Tom( who keeps his potty manners from an early age) ...

Johnny is just miserable.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
am wondering what should China's response be if US successfully instigated India to attack China while landing US forces in Taiwan.
Should China deal with the western threat first with a quick campaign, then turn her attention to the east afterward?
Or Vice versa?
Or start a two-front war?
complicated quandary for China. o_O
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
am wondering what should China's response be if US successfully instigated India to attack China while landing US forces in Taiwan.
Should China deal with the western threat first with a quick campaign, then turn her attention to the east afterward?
Or Vice versa?
Or start a two-front war?
complicated quandary for China. o_O
"Why not both at the same time?"
Thats the reason why there are many theater commands.

The Western Theater command would deal with India, and the rest with US (+ other puppets)
 

Cyclist

Junior Member
am wondering what should China's response be if US successfully instigated India to attack China while landing US forces in Taiwan.
Should China deal with the western threat first with a quick campaign, then turn her attention to the east afterward?
Or Vice versa?
Or start a two-front war?
complicated quandary for China. o_O
Don't forget, Taiwan also has people who are pro-PRC. China will need them and hopefully the war will be quick or with a coup.

 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
lol but okay this is getting well off topic.

US itself doesn't want to get into a war with China over Taiwan, its allies are truly and honestly much less inclined despite placation and a bunch of yes men saying what they need to say while times are okay. India is not going to go to war with China. It'll be the end of India. China has no desire to take over India or go to war with India over... nothing. It would be a waste of resources and lives.

Taiwan reunification is a matter of time and circumstances for reunification. China wants to do it peacefully so everything is intact and all fine people are alive. Taiwan declaring independence is the only spanner they can throw and force China's hand but doing so means the leadership that announced independence is done for and PRC must invade. That's it and rest is well off topic.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
am wondering what should China's response be if US successfully instigated India to attack China while landing US forces in Taiwan.
Should China deal with the western threat first with a quick campaign, then turn her attention to the east afterward?
Or Vice versa?
Or start a two-front war?
complicated quandary for China. o_O
This is actually a relatively simple thing to handle. WTC wouldn't hold the line at the border but instead fall back and trade space for time. Once Indian forces are inside Tibet the same logistic problems that prevented PLA from advancing further in 1962 will similarly cause problem for the invaders. Then WTC will pull some deep battle strategy and encircle that force and "wrap a big dumpling" as it's called.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wish I could share you guys' optimism, but I am worried, with US hellbent on causing trouble for China as it is.
well, now that it is entering November, Ladakh area should be in a deep freeze soon, and no military action is possible for both sides, unless the Indian side wants to pull a suicidal attack against the inhospitable elements.
so all should be quiet on the western front, at least for the next few months. Our brave PLA soldiers can enjoy hotpot inside their warm barracks, while those on the other side can chew on frozen curry for dinner.
 
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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
well, now that it is entering November, Ladakh area should be in a deep freeze soon, and no military action is possible for both sides, unless the Indian side wants to pull a suicidal attack against the inhospitable elements.
so all should be quiet on the western front, at least for the next few months.
Sounds like an ideal time for a sneak attack
 
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