Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.

Waqar Khan

Junior Member
Registered Member
the role of Pakistan in Ladakh Standoff will be crucial,Pakistan may find for the first time that its Military is at par with Indian military,especially when India has been forced to deploy number of Divisions on LAC with China. In a classic two front situation Indian options are limited.Occupied Kashmir is seeing an unprecedented movement where youth is coming out in streets to confront Indian Army.
In the eastern sea board of India and Seven Sisters,t eh Naxal and Naga activity may tie down a major component of Indian Army,especially its Eastern Command.
 

Phoenix_Rising

Junior Member
This is a very sad story back from 2017 I thought still carries a lot of relevance to today. A Chinese soldier accidentally wandered into Indian territory and ended up being trapped there in a 50+ year nightmare. Imagine if the 60 Indian soldiers captured by the Chinese on June 15 were only released back to India in the 2070s? Thanks to the BBC, now we know this tragic story. Pathetic for a country that always claims the moral high ground and plays the victim in this dispute.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

AFAI can recall, when a Chinese website interviewed him, he said his was hidden in a cell, tied up and mouth stuffed, when a red-cross envoy came to the jail to look for him.
I don't know if it was true, but I feel 100% no surprise it was real. Indians have been unable to deliver a straight powerplay with China ever since 1962.
 

muddie

Junior Member
The two terrifying words for the Indian leadership should be Vietnamization and Brazilianization.

What do these words mean? Vietnamization -> being forced to overspend on the military in order to fend off a strategic threat, impoverishing your economy. It is a Sun-zian way of winning without fighting.

Brazilianization -> being forced into a middle income trap by a superior power

Even if India doesn't throw any punches, it still faces the threat of China Vietnamizing it so that it can Brazilianize it. If India is stuck spending huge amounts on defense, for nationalist glory, it's not spending money on human capital and physical capital upgrades. Unless you're running a militarily parasitic economy (see Nazi Germany, Spanish Empire), guns don't make money.

India's military budget is only ~2.5% of GDP, it's not high at all.
 

Waqar Khan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Our Syndicate piece on CHINESE COLD START IN LADAKH Published by the Nation today
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Indian Cold Start Doctrine was promulgated at the start of 21st century to punish Pakistan through a proactive military strategy of hit and mobilize. This warranted creation of a military echo system in frontier zones and re-orientation of the military to be able to initiate operations within 48 hours of the “go” given by political leadership. In the case of Pakistan, it was also linked to any major terror attack in India with an intention of military generating an automated response after a presumed terror attack.
Pakistan’s response was through a new concept of war-fighting and a quid pro quo strategy; something the world witnessed on February 28 through Operation Swift Retort.
Looking at the Chinese reclaiming their perceived Line of Actual Control (LAC) in April-May; it does resemble something like Cold Start.
The Chinese were able to create a military ecosystem in the inhospitable terrain and weather of Ladakh sector, ensure a quick assembly of forces by using rail, road and air transportation systems and unnerving the opponent. Chinese military has virtually paralysed the Indian political and military leadership and the third largest military spender of the world seems to have no utility of its military in defending the border of so-called Asia Pivot.
Failing to respond in time and shy of contact, Indian military is now digging in for a big haul, relying on tiring the Chinese through hybrid warfare, with diplomacy and information warfare as the main effort. Although Chinese media has started airing its own version of the military situation, Indian media with more English channels and newspapers and digital warriors seems to be creating an impact albeit mostly domestic.
China has to further develop capability in hybrid warfare; Chinese English media like CGTN and Global Times needs a biting narrative as softness does not pay dividends in crisis, but it needs to be done in a subtle way. Comparing it with Indian media, which is almost jumpy and absurd, China needs to learn some lessons. It should build up a cabal of sophisticated hybrid warriors who can forcefully project Chinese narrative and may take help from trusted friends. The post-truth media environment needs a 24/7 media blitz from multiple platforms.
Some of the anti-China scenarios being projected by Indian and Western media are sugar-coated Cold War themes applied against the erstwhile Soviet Union.
There is talk of shutting down Chinese trade and oil supply. For that, the US and her allies have to establish a sea blockade in the entire Indo Pacific and Gulf, which may not be possible. These are acts of war and one should expect a military response from China. Presently, the US is pulling out of Afghanistan and Iraq after 19 years of fruitless wars and virtually no results other than chaos. Even dealing with Iranian Navy in the Gulf region has become problematic. Iran is using second generation technology combined with swarm attacks of drones and missiles, what could the mighty US and her 46 allies do against Iran so far? Chinese strategy will not be defensive only: can China target the Continental US(CONUS) through swarm warfare, in multiple domains? That is a big question. Already John Bolton is exposing Trump on asking China for help in elections.
US executive, legislature and Intelligence community are daggers drawn against each other and are not able to manage protests by BLM and the left. The west, led by the US, is embroiled in domestic issues and needs to put her own house in order before attempting to destabilise China. The Chinese demographic, economic and military profile is too strong to be rubbished by few research papers written in the cosy classrooms of American universities or discussed in talk shows in India.
When the US-led coalition of 46 countries entered West Asia after 9/11 in the shadow of Bush-Rice-Rumsfeld’s shock and awe doctrine, did anyone imagine that war will linger on till 2020? What was the technology and economy of Afghan resistance? Comparatively, it was a military ratio of 1:1000 in favour of NATO. As the Chinese defence analysts, Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui, projected in “Unrestricted Warfare” in the 1990s, the corn cob gobbling Afghan was pitched against the high-tech McDonalds. Finally, it is Afghan will and tenacity which has brought the mighty Uncle Sam to the negotiating table in Doha.
For those building scenarios against China, there are great lessons in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.
India is also trying to raise the bogey of Tibet, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Of these three, the question of Taiwan is important to understand. Take the cue from what happened in Ukraine and Crimea, how the Russians checkmated NATO’s expansion in their backyard. What did NATO do? It actually allowed Ukraine to split along a line east of the Dnieper River. Will the Chinese response on Taiwan take a similar shape?
Looking at the Ladakh standoff between India and China, China has not overrun the Himalayas or Karakoram but forced India into a strategic dilemma where her politico-military leadership seems to have run out of options. The post-truth world is different and a slight change of position on ground can challenge the so-called chaotic democracies and build immense pressure on the leadership thereby creating a snowball through social media and paralysing strategic response. Indo Pacific and Quad has not come to rescue India as you cannot play submarines and aircraft carriers in the Himalayas. NATO got bogged down in Afghan mountains, despite its might.
Wars and confrontations are costly. As per
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the global war on terror cost the United States government just over 5.4 trillion U.S. dollars. This figure includes estimates of all budgetary spending related to the war on terror between FY 2001 and FY 2020. This figure of 5.4 trillion does not include the ongoing medical and disability expenditure for veterans beyond FY 2020, which is estimated to cost an additional one trillion U.S. dollars by FY 2059. What are the results? US debt is 21.29 trillion dollars and growing at a rate of 5000 dollars per second, so as you read this article, the US debt will add another million dollars. Cutting trees and printing currency does not make one financially viable. The US has already outsourced the manufacturing and technical expertise overseas. Trump’s desire for America first is a dream. One cannot build technical expertise in five years; it requires a lifetime. These are some of additional factors that armchair strategists in Delhi and the Western capitals must keep in mind before drawing conclusions on what can be done against China.
It is also important to look at Russia in this crisis and the place of India in the SCO and Eurasian arrangement: Our Russian friend Andrew Korybko stated in a comment that he didn’t see Russia getting rid of India, but the reverse, and even then, not right away. Russia relies heavily on India for important military-technical contracts that contribute greatly to its state budget. It’s been doing all that it can to strengthen and diversify relations, not weaken and eliminate them. Moreover, while a lot has been made about Russia not taking India’s side in this dispute, it shouldn’t be forgotten that it hasn’t sided with China either. It doesn’t want to get involved, but even if it did want to, there isn’t much space for it to do so. The US is rapidly replacing Russia’s former role in South Asia, and there isn’t much that Moscow can, or wants, to do about it.
Looking at how Modi showed his cards by engaging Australians during the crises and how Pompeo is inciting India for Tibet, things may move swiftly than previous strategic estimates. China has billions of dollars of trade with India, but it acted to prevent any threat to her interests in South Asia, especially CPEC. It is likely that in the long run, India will become the odd man out in Eurasia and SCO members will have something to think about.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
" Indian military is now digging in for a big haul, relying on tiring the Chinese through hybrid warfare, with diplomacy and information warfare as the main effort."
Can anybody ask the indians what's the definition of hybrid & info warfare?
I am pretty sure they think meme making & photo-shops are highest form of info warfare & they are world champ at it.
 

Attachments

  • index.jpg
    index.jpg
    9.1 KB · Views: 8

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
India's military budget is only ~2.5% of GDP, it's not high at all.
What percentage of Annual Government Budget is the Indian Military Budget ? Don't look at GDP vs Military spending numbers. And try not to compare with other countries.

With the current rate of literacy, malnutrition, healthcare and a plethora of other factors where India is lagging, I think a huge portion of India's Annual Government budget must be sunk back into society rather than Military.

But India can't due to Pakistan and China and Internal Issues.
India's military spending is also woefully inefficient. India cannot gradually decrease its military (infantry) numbers to an extend like China as places like Kashmir and elsewhere necessitate huge numbers of boots on ground. India also spends its little precious cash on foreign equipment (from Russia, Israel, French and USA).

This is a country that keeps tottering along. China can make India spend itself into a bigger ditch ( Rafale acquisition was/is a response to a new Chinese card ( J20) as well as a Mirage2000 replacement for Attack role).

Imagine what would happen with Quad ! The optics of all these fancy agreements aside ( BECA,COMCASA,LEMOA etc) it is primarily India itself which has to spend more TO MEET ITS PART in the agreements. That is why I like the Quad. It is inherently hurtful to India because the other 2 Junior member countries are well developed nations ( Japan and Australia). And we all know that USA does not like to spend further on its "friends" these days.
 

Zool

Junior Member
What percentage of Annual Government Budget is the Indian Military Budget ? Don't look at GDP vs Military spending numbers. And try not to compare with other countries.

Most of Indian defense spending goes towards salaries and their 'One Retirement One Pension' program.
For 2020-21 they allocated $73.65 Billion USD out of a total budget of around $430.5 Billion USD. And that's deficit spending with stimulus packages beyond their projected revenue, and pre covid-19 lockdown. But anyway, defense spending is a little over 17% of the Indian budget.

The following article gives a nice summary of that $73.65 Billion USD allocation:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


NEW DELHI — India’s defense budget for 2020-2021 will be $73.65 billion, the country government announced Saturday, but officials and analysts are warning the amount is unlikely to meet new demands for weapons purchases and military modernization, as India is set to spend about 90 percent if its defense funds on existing obligations.

Of the total budget, $18.52 billion is for weapons purchases; $32.7 billion is for maintenance of the military’s weapons inventory, pay and allowances, infrastructure, and recurring expenses; and $21.91 billion is for defense pensions.

“The capital budget leaves no room for any big-ticket weapons purchase, as over 90 percent of the allocation capital funds will [be spent] for past [defense] contracts’ committed liabilities," a senior Ministry of Defence official told Defense News.
The limited procurement spending is expected to directly impact “Make in India" defense projects, a policy meant to boost the local economy under the ruling National Democratic Alliance government.

“This also [leaves] no room for any major weapons purchases from U.S. at least for one to two years,” the MoD official added.
India is slated to make a number of purchases through the U.S. Foreign Miltiary Sales program, including 22 MQ-9 Reaper (Predator B) drones for $2.6 billion; and additional six P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft for $1 billion; two Gulfstream 550 aircraft for intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance for nearly $1 billion; and one unit of the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System II for more than $1 billion.

During at least the last two years, the Indian military has complained about a lack of funds for resolving existing liabilities. Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for acquisitions at the MoD, said the military will likely continue to face the challenge of preventing defaults on contractual payments.

The senior MoD official told Defense News that due to the shortage of funds, at least a dozen pending defense contracts will experience delays. “The current $18.52 billion capital allocation is only [a] marginal increase from [the] previous year [capital] allocation of $18.02 billion [and] does not even adequately cover inflation costs.”

The Indian Air Force is to receive $6.76 billion from the 2020-2021 budget, a drop from the previous year’s $7.01 billion. The money is expected to go toward payments for orders of Rafale fighters from France and an S-400 missile system from Russia.

The Indian Navy is to receive $4.56 billion, which is expected to help cover the cost of leasing a nuclear submarine and stealth frigates from Russia, as well as pay for warships from Indian companies. A Navy official said it is unlikely the service will be able to sign a contract for 24 MH-60R multirole helicopters for more than $2 billion from the U.S. next year.

The Indian Army is to receive $5.06 billion to pay cover previous orders of wheeled and ultralight artillery guns, T-90 tanks, and ammunition.

India’s state-owned defense companies continue to receive 60 percent of defense-related business, with 30 percent going to overseas defense companies and 10 percent to domestic private defense firms.

Another MoD official said the armed forces plan to focus on industry-funded defense projects under the government’s “Make-II” category, which allows private companies to participate in the prototype development of weapons and platforms with a focus on import substitution, for which no government funding will be provided.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I honestly don’t believe China will support any effort for independence by anyone, even Kashmir and India. One of the core interests of China is to keep its own territory intact, and prevent any efforts within its own borders to become independent, mainly Taiwan. That means China will NOT encourage any form of independence of any kind anywhere in the world. They don’t want to give the Taiwanese any ideas. This is their core interest, and should supersede any other temporary threats.

But suppose China is already engaged in a multi-front war which involves India and Taiwan.

Then there would be no reason to hold back on Kashmir.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
At this point in time, with they way they have dealt with the coronavirus and the current locust swarm fucking things up and the economic damage taken, trying to take advantage of the situation by lying about there satellites superiority (I mean, come on do they have the R & D and patents to manage this) isn't going to improve the situation

Language please
 

MrCrazyBoyRavi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyone else think that global times is trying to farm twitter followers by trolling Indians everyday? I think its a good strategy. More follower you have , more the exposure and more media clout.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top