Ladakh Flash Point

lgnxz said:

Yet it still won't even close in closing the military gap between the two. Why even bother repeating this for months already, you know it, I know it, Your own government even know it. You deliberately trigger an infrastructure race against china in the border area.. get real already do you think china is seriously threatened by this? You're trying to challenge china, the best in the world at building infrastructures, and you somehow surprised that the infrastructure and military gap between us is getting wider and wider?

At this point China should really lowkey thank modi the same way trump is destroying his own country with short-sighted emotional decisions made for entertaining his own domestic political fanbase.

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When did I say anything about an infrastructure race between India and China? If China interprets Indian construction as a threat, that is on them.
And no, the infrastructure gap is narrowing. I have already shown only a few of the strategic roads, bridges etc. that India has built last summer. Ask yourself why that is specifically mentioned by China's official embassy statement.
It is pretty clear you know very little about the Indo-Sino border areas. The reason there was relative calm for two decades after the 1993 agreement was because India never built anything in that area. That was literally a policy of the Indian government at the time. Of course,, that changed around the turn of the decade. Obviously, that allowed for temporary peace since India posed no threat to China, and China was able to dominate the entire border without even temporarily crossing the lac. Today, that is not the case.

Construction of the DSDBO Road and other stategic projects helps China? Lol now it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. If that is the case, why did China try to threaten and and even stop construction of those projects, and attempt to shift the lac west only to fail at both?
Please connect the dots.
Just a few examples. Please do your own research

Look the apparent end result of the standoff is no shooting war. If India interprets this as them thwarting Chinese advance, that's on them to believe. Doesn't make it true. Think about why China would advance in, occupy for nearly a year successfully with India showing it is both unable to push them out or start shooting, and then after getting what they want from India, leaving the forward position.

China is happy with the outcome of India not patrolling the remaining 20% disputed land between the LAC and the blue line where China actually controls up to.

The issue now, which is why both sides are still inside the 20% in areas like Gogra Hot Springs and Demchok, is because the other side (however you want to consider perspectives) is still inside this stretch. China wants it all as a buffer. That was the whole point PLA occupied F4 to F8. China wants the remaining 20% stretch as a buffer. The entire thing. Not give it to India and not let India patrol it so often that PLA has to come and tell them to leave (not leave Chinese land but the disputed land). This has caused confrontations that have become mildly to lethally violent. Buffer means China doesn't need to devote as much resources in observing and making sure India doesn't patrol or leaves if they do. It also secures Aksai Chin nearly as well as a demarcated line does.

With Pangong, India agreed to not patrolling disputed land anymore and staying behind F3 which is Indian land. China wants up to LAC but that is 100% of historic dispute to China then. The next best thing China can genuinely aim for is getting this total buffer so that India ends up with 0%, China ends up with 80% and 20% is buffer to prevent patrols and violence.

India wanted PLA off F4 to F8 as quick as possible so agreed to that. It is the most forward position the PLA captured up to in this standoff and I doubt other bits where PLA are west of blue line have any significant "intrusion" by PLA into dispute. India in these parts may even be more present than PLA.

If China always controlled up to F4 (LOL) then why did PLA occupying F4 to F8 ever become such an issue? The truth is China has always only controlled up to F8 since 1962 war and till this standoff. The only thing is they recently built a road from F8 to F5 area. India understandably considers this building within disputed land a threat and things escalated since.

If China was aiming to push forward, why did they leave F4 to F8? Why did they negotiate and talk with India? Clearly India had to agree to some thing/s for PLA to leave F4 to F8 and that was at least (one thing disclosed) India staying behind F3 and not patrolling a step further from east of F3 point. How will they keep the promise is another issue and irrelevant to understanding the bargain.

Now why are both sides still in standoff to the north and southern dispute? Because each refuse to vacate it. But if both agree to vacate and make the entire thing a buffer - China's aim! then India will lose out on everything. They wouldn't have gotten a inch from the historic dispute. I believe China is fully willing to leave any PLA positions west of the blue line in return for India leaving to behind LAC just like on Pangong. It is India unwilling to lose out and convert the whole thing into a buffer or to demarcate the line which means they lose Aksai Chin.

twineedle said:

So how do you explain this very detailed Chinese embassy statement clearly mentioning Indian infrastructure construction(which India has now completed) as a cuase for the standoff?

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Here, I'll quote the statement -

Since April this year, the Indian border troops have unilaterally and continuously built roads, bridges and other facilities at the LAC in the Galwan Valley. China has lodged representations and protests on multiple occasions but India has gone even further to cross the LAC and make provocations. By the early morning of May 6, the Indian border troops, who have crossed the LAC by night and trespassed into China's territory, have built fortification and barricades, which impeded the patrol of Chinese border troops They deliberately made provocations in an attempt to unilaterally change the status quo of control and management. The Chinese border troops have been forced to take necessary measures to respond to the situation on the ground and strengthen management and control in the border areas.

The statements lays down that the Indian provocations were preceded by the construction activities. This is in line with the Chinese renewed claim for entirety of Galwan Valley. That region specifically.

Grey_Lie said:

Most of time, India wins in a conflict.

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... Really?

Remind me again, how many centuries has "India" spent as a conquered entity? That is the "India" we are talking about, right? The same imagined ancient "India" that your Prime Minister keeps harping about? Because that "India" is probably the most conquered place on earth.

As for the list of conflicts in "modern" India you listed, it's funny how you used it to argue that your military isn't incompetent. Maybe you need to read that list again. Even against smaller countries like Pakistan, and even smaller countries like Sri Lanka, India has failed to establish its own political and strategic will on its own borders. India is the weakest large country in the history of large countries.

Grey_Lie said:

"No, Indians aren't worth it"

Is this really how you see us?

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Give me a f**king break.

Have you seen your country's news channels? The most popular anchors in your country are routinely making the most vile and racist remarks about China, and they get paid handsomely to do it. There have been many clips of their insanity posted on this thread. By the way, we've had multiple Indian members on this very thread who proudly compared their own military to the Nazis. And let we forget, the leader of your country literally attempted genocide in Gujarat, before you elected him as your leader. So spare me your nice guy routine.

I think Manqiangrexue needlessly (personal opinion lol don't bite me) provoked some Indian members into escalating and then now we're veering on the edge of flaming territory. Something even the more usually sensible members may become involved in. Let's scale things back and at least keep it on topic and try to keep it civil. Even this thread easily reaches critical mass when emotions get riled up.

Indian members are actually understandably upset in how India sometimes get described but let's be honest. This is not even remotely close to the depravity of some DFI and Indian forums. The exaggerations here are tame in comparison and at least statements are actually critiqued and assessed... we also don't entertain quite as much violently false information like DFI does. Personal conjectures are also at a pretty tame level compared to DFI and PDF. PDF is becoming an intellectual cesspit as well especially with controversial threads and topics along with the trolls from all sides. As forum members we should do better if not as people. Some people are too politically motivated to spread propaganda. Can't do that much about it but such is the nature of this struggle. Allowing those elements to proliferate here is condemning otherwise thoughtful readers into being exposed non-stop to conjecture and false information. I think the facts have been summed up fairly well and challenged and corrected when wrong. At least perspectives and conjecture offered even if it sometimes takes dozens of pages worth of back and forth. It's enough to not revisit.

Chinese closest derogatory word for Indians is ah san which is itself rarely been used in a derogatory way. It describes someone from Assam. Basically it means from Assam or that area due to the history of contact and cultural exchange/migration. Indian forums love to take things to the most extreme and even beyond saying rubbish that people here probably know well enough for me to not bring any examples. I see one side being more bothered about things and finding more need to demolish their humanity DFI is probably the worst cesspit for this. Any fair minded reader can spent a few years to familiarise themselves with these topics and the way people behave and come to their own conclusions. Some Indian members here are much more decent and at least do try to reason until they become emotionally upset about certain things they feel invested in believing. Anyway let's try to keep this factual and civil because we've had period of 100+pages of just flaming... distracting from facts and records of things.

I know it's easy to partake and contribute to off topic and attempts to rile the other but let's remind ourselves we want to avoid dozens of pages of that cycle to the bottom if we're aware of the trajectory.

ougoah said:

. Some Indian members here are much more decent and at least do try to reason until they become emotionally upset about certain things they feel invested in believing. .

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The same Indian members use different tone and words in their own forums. Many so called decent members are merely hiding their true attitudes because here they don't have their tribe to back them with fake news peddling, self-appeasing, racist vomit.

Often easy to look up their names in other forums.

PoK, Aksai Chin part of Jammu and Kashmir, will sacrifice our lives for it: Amit Shah in Lok Sabha​

Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Aksai Chin is an integral and inseparable part of Jammu and Kashmir and India, Union Home Minister Amit Shah on Tuesday said in Lok Sabha on Tuesday. "Whenever I talk about Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Aksai Chin comes under it and can die for it,"

6th August 2019.

India's general goal here is achieving total control of Aksai Chin. Demarcating the line throws this goal beyond reach. Setting up a buffer throughout the remaining 20% disputed land also throws this goal beyond reach without a full intensity shooting war because India can't even reach areas west of Aksai Chin without trespassing beyond future buffer zone and even some Chinese controlled parts. If they did that, it is open invitation for PLA to shoot.

Therefore India is the one refusing to end the standoff anywhere that is not disengaged. Pangong they let go and relented (agreed to conditions of PLA disengagement) only because it is too high profile a case and the longer PLA continued holding forward positions, the more politically untenable it was for Modi with Congress attacking him non-stop.

Even if Pangong disengagement agreements hold India to staying behind F3, they don't need to stay behind the LAC elsewhere, they want to maintain the opportunity to push in, patrol whenever, and slowly salami slice their way to maintaining de facto control of the disputed stretches that isn't Pangong or governed by the agreements of the recent disengagement.

This is why the PLA and Chinese side has refused to vacate other parts. India assumed PLA would when they agreed to Pangong conditions of PLA disengagement but PLA want India to get behind and stay behind LAC everywhere else. They are not because again that creates buffer conditions which cuts them off from not only the remaining 20% but also Aksai Chin.

Both sides are stuck because China won't give India the rest of the dispute, India won't move back. As long as it doesn't get violent, who cares I guess.

ougoah said:

India's general goal here is achieving total control of Aksai Chin.

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I would like to expand -

India's general goal is to
1. Retake Aksai Chin and completely dismantle or neuter the Pakistan threat. India believes that China is Pakistan enabler and the expressway going through Aksai Chin to Pak is the artery. India's most aggressive enemy is Pakistan and wants to balkanize it.

2. Take Kailash mountain and surrounding regions to satisfy its religio-cultural demands and aspirations.

3. Get Tibet into a buffer region by converting it into a nation. Make sure that no foreign power can use the plateau against India. Ensure water security by "securing" the catchment areas for the major rivers of Indian subcontinent.

Ideally for India, all the surrounding nations need to be small and less powerful and ought to see India as the big brother.