JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Indianfighter]

Thanks A. Man for the supporting arguments. When the salary of a soldier in PLA has increased 3 times since 2000, wonder how an FC-1's cost can remain still even after 11 years. That too when its added so many goodies since then.

Munir, I said earlier that if J-7 is being retired in PLAAF then FC-1 does have a chance at induction. But PLAAF is unlikely to retire some 600 J-7s very soon. Maybe in 10-15 years.

 

[i.e.]

Thanks A. Man for the supporting arguments. When the salary of a soldier in PLA has increased 3 times since 2000, wonder how an FC-1's cost can remain still even after 11 years. That too when its added so many goodies since then.

Munir, I said earlier that if J-7 is being retired in PLAAF then FC-1 does have a chance at induction. But PLAAF is unlikely to retire some 600 J-7s very soon. Maybe in 10-15 years.

more sophisticated industrial product... labor cost would be relatively less.

majority cost of an aircraft is in its RD stage and during production after the initial tooling investment it is the defect rate and how fast can you move that production line.

 

[Player99]

I'm too lazy to copy and paste (if I can here), but in case this thead below with its nice JF-17's pics has not caught you guys attention, let it be enjoyed and appreciated now:

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[Hyperwarp]

I'm too lazy to copy and paste (if I can here), but in case this thead below with its nice JF-17's pics has not caught you guys attention, let it be enjoyed and appreciated now:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Player99]

Not sure if I should tell you "Don't worry, I go there often and with the protection of 360 suite, I never have caught any bad things from there"

Do you mind if I suggest that you download and install the free 360 stuff that probably most Chinese in China uses nowadays? Hehe...

P.S. The site does have what we in China call "rogue ware" that keeps popping out windows (some also tries to change your IE homepage)... Then again, with 360 for the last 3 years, I have since removed my Norton and have enjoyed a healthy computer environment.

P.P.S. 360, meaning 360 degrees of protection, is a lot more than a mere antivirus software, it keeps an eye on you system for upgrades, patches, CPU/RAM usages, bandwidth usages, garbage accumulated, etc. etc. And on top of all, it's completely free for anyone to download.

 

[Munir]

Munir, I said earlier that if J-7 is being retired in PLAAF then FC-1 does have a chance at induction. But PLAAF is unlikely to retire some 600 J-7s very soon. Maybe in 10-15 years.

I think their priority is increasing more advanced fighterjets first. Nothing strange about that. Would you go for 150 Fc1 or 150 J10? But do not forget the cross feeding of technology between all these projects. There is a lot of electronic equipment tested in J10 before it was copied to JF17. And JF17 tested DSI which is going to be part of J10b. The J7's will be retired one way or the other due to limitations of the airframe. Maybe western example. F15 and F16 and F5... Looks like J11, J10 and J7. The Fc1 comes between J7 and J10... At the moment...

 

[Player99]

Munir, did you try the URL I pasted? I think you'd like it as the birds in the pics are alll in Pakistani colors... but the background looks like it's in Zhuhai, as someone pointed out.

 

[nemo]

I think their priority is increasing more advanced fighterjets first. Nothing strange about that. Would you go for 150 Fc1 or 150 J10? But do not forget the cross feeding of technology between all these projects. There is a lot of electronic equipment tested in J10 before it was copied to JF17. And JF17 tested DSI which is going to be part of J10b. The J7's will be retired one way or the other due to limitations of the airframe. Maybe western example. F15 and F16 and F5... Looks like J11, J10 and J7. The Fc1 comes between J7 and J10... At the moment...

There is another matter to consider -- logistics. J10B uses WS-10 as well, so PLAAF can standardize on one engine, and support infrastructure for J-10 is existing. And RD-33 is now imported -- I would not be surprised if it's actually more expensive than the WS-10.

J-10 being a PLA project, R&D are sunk cost and paid for, so the acquisition cost are for aircraft itself only. FC-1, being commercial project, are priced as cost plus R&D share. So as a far as PLAAF is concerned, J-10 may be cheaper than FC-1.


So there is currently no advantage of going for FC-1.

 

[Qasim57]

So as a far as PLAAF is concerned, J-10 may be cheaper than FC-1.


So there is currently no advantage of going for FC-1.

I respectfully doubt that this is the case. J-10 is a larger and more sophisticated aircraft, it follows that it's manufacturing cost is also higher. Cost of avionics these aircraft field are also different. For example, @Munir mentioned this cross-feeding of technology between aircraft - and though JF-17's KLJ-07 and J-10A's KLJ-10 radar have the same design heritage(KLJ-07 essentially being a smaller KLJ-10 with a smaller sender/reciever dish and lower wattage), the difference in size, complexity, power output, is bound to result in a cost-difference. These radars, for example, are bound to differ in costs, just like they differ in performance.

Difference in performance is not enormously large, as both these radars are integrated with the same frontline weaponry(same SD-10A/B BVR, PL-5E WVR, C-802/803 AShM, etc) and PLAAF can get something that may not match up to J-10's performance, but also not so far behind either. The difference in combat range&ferry range(two things that matter alot to China which has large areas to cover) are not that large either. As China's economy also experiences ripples of this global economic meltdown that started in the west, and budgets are tightened, FC-1/J-9/JF-17 may become an appealing option with sufficient performance.

Rightnow, it's hard to make informed guesses. We've heard from official sources, which include CAC officials at Dubai, which say that PLAAF is still considering this prospect and might make a decision "very soon". We've also officially heard how, back in 2009,

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. And the last semi-official thing to note - returning from the latest Zhuhai airshow, a senior PAF official mentioned at an interview on Sept 6, how JF-17's performance at Zhuhai met with alot of approval. J-10's Chengdu designers(same folks who designed JF-17) happily told the PAF team how, despite J-10 being a superior aircraft, JF-17's better demo made it seem like JF-17 was superior(J-10's demonstration was complicated by windy&stormy weather).

 

[nemo]

Qasim:
I am not convinced by your reasoning. While no one is rich enough to buy everything he wanted, China isn't exactly short of money. In case you have not noticed, per soldier spending for China now exceed Taiwan and close to South Korea. When you consider the low wage, the amount of money to spend on the new toys is more than apparent. The fact that China would invest in expensive toys like J-20 means China is willing to trade quality for quantity.

I still maintain my argument that J-10 is a better buy due to performance. The effective price for PLA will not be different enough to make FC-1 attractive, even if J-10 is more expensive after all the accounting. The fact that WS-10 is domestically produced while RD-33 is not is enough for PLA to chose J-10 over FC-1. Despite of similarities, there will still be additional logistic cost associated with additional aircraft type. So balance is even more tilted toward J-10.

Your argument on the airshow performance strike me as a bit desperate. PLA knows better then anyone the true performance of J-10, and is hence not likely to be swayed. And there is plenty of reason why China chose not to show J-10's full capability -- safety, it's not looking to sale the aircraft, and secrecy. If I remember correctly, J-10s flied in formation, while FC-1 as a single aircraft. And in formation flying, one do need to be much more conservative, due to the risk of collision. So the comparison may not be fair, to begin with.

The only reason I can think of for PLA to buy FC-1 is for it to serve as Pakistani strategic reserve, in case war between India and Pakistan starts. In which case China would just fly the fighters to Pakistan to the hands of the Pakistani pilots already trained to operate them. Even as such, FC-1 have no chance of being a mainstay of the Chinese Air Force.