JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
What is exactly the range difference? To me it sounds like USA does not need F16, F5 cause it has F22 or something else. The JF17 is not a point defense fighter. Neither is it short legged and has IFR. If China has number of A5's, F6's then will they replace them all with MKK, J10 or FC20? Not in all situations or area's you need a big range or big fighter. It is all matter of costs and...
The reason I see is that China will only buy planes of a new kind if all parts are produced in China. As long as that is not the case it will be not worth the risk. Even for China.
The reason I see is that China will only buy planes of a new kind if all parts are produced in China. As long as that is not the case it will be not worth the risk. Even for China.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
IFR will only go so far, especially since the PLAAF is not exactly well stocked with tankers, and that does not look set to change any time soon.
The problem the JF17 faces is that it falls into a bit of a hole between two classes. It is directly competing with the J10 for the PLAAF's primary single engined fighter role. But unfortunately, it just does not quite match up against the J10 because of the weight difference. So the comparison is less USAF not needing F16s, but more like USAF not needing the F20 or F18 since it already have the F16.
At the other end, JF17 is too good to use as a low-end air policing fighter for minimal threat areas, armed JL9s and L15s would fill those voids just fine. It's shorter range (compared to the J10) and also being single engined would not make it the first choice for the navy either, so the chances of it becoming the PLANAF's F18 is not all that great either.
While it is possible that China is waiting for the domestic engine to be ready before making a purchase, that seems less and less likely as things like the J10B start moving closer to production.
I had hoped that the Aug 1st display team might have been tempted to by JF17s, and that would have opened the way for more to be purchased by the PLAAF, perhaps to focus as aggressors and/or as defensive cover, freeing up J10s and J11s to deploy as escorts for strikers or to conduct offensive air sweeps etc.
However, that the PLAAF has decided to splash out on J10s even for the display team does not bold well for the chances of JF17s appearing in the PLAAF.
In a way though, Pakistan should be pleased by this instead of dismayed. This is the ultimate proof that CAC has only had PAF's requirements and needs in mind when they designed the JF17 to the point where it is not well fitting for the PLAAF.
If I was a PAF pilot, I would much rather CAC did it that way than them having made design revisions or compromises to make the JF17 more attractive to the PLAAF, at the expense of PAF needs.
While export success would be most welcome, the far and away most important requirement is that the JF17 meets Pakistan's requirements and needs as well as it can. Would you really want to compromise of the JF17's core purpose just to make it more attractive to other buyers?
The problem the JF17 faces is that it falls into a bit of a hole between two classes. It is directly competing with the J10 for the PLAAF's primary single engined fighter role. But unfortunately, it just does not quite match up against the J10 because of the weight difference. So the comparison is less USAF not needing F16s, but more like USAF not needing the F20 or F18 since it already have the F16.
At the other end, JF17 is too good to use as a low-end air policing fighter for minimal threat areas, armed JL9s and L15s would fill those voids just fine. It's shorter range (compared to the J10) and also being single engined would not make it the first choice for the navy either, so the chances of it becoming the PLANAF's F18 is not all that great either.
While it is possible that China is waiting for the domestic engine to be ready before making a purchase, that seems less and less likely as things like the J10B start moving closer to production.
I had hoped that the Aug 1st display team might have been tempted to by JF17s, and that would have opened the way for more to be purchased by the PLAAF, perhaps to focus as aggressors and/or as defensive cover, freeing up J10s and J11s to deploy as escorts for strikers or to conduct offensive air sweeps etc.
However, that the PLAAF has decided to splash out on J10s even for the display team does not bold well for the chances of JF17s appearing in the PLAAF.
In a way though, Pakistan should be pleased by this instead of dismayed. This is the ultimate proof that CAC has only had PAF's requirements and needs in mind when they designed the JF17 to the point where it is not well fitting for the PLAAF.
If I was a PAF pilot, I would much rather CAC did it that way than them having made design revisions or compromises to make the JF17 more attractive to the PLAAF, at the expense of PAF needs.
While export success would be most welcome, the far and away most important requirement is that the JF17 meets Pakistan's requirements and needs as well as it can. Would you really want to compromise of the JF17's core purpose just to make it more attractive to other buyers?
Engineer
Major
Before people start arguing that JF-17 will eventually get inducted into service by PLAAF, they should do some research so as to better understand PLAAF's current requirement. And before people give the cliché answer "IFR" to the question with regards to range, they should do a back of the envelop calculation as to how many tanker aircraft are needed so as to realize the ridiculousness of such answer.
I thinkn the whole idea of a forum is to ask and reply... Marking it as ridi is like expecting we are all extremely informed and intellectual. I can tell you we are not.
Anyway. Range was an issue...
Range JF17
Combat radius: 1,352 km[16] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,480 km[131] (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
Range J10
1100 km without in flight refueling
Ferry range: 3200 km
Since the figures are from Wiki... But I think we can skip the range issue.
I tend to think about the carpetbombing idea of some. We all have seen weapons becoming smarter so no need to carry huge loads Like F14 or Phantom.
I do not want push the planes in someones hands but I try to figure out what people say when they call others ridi.
Anyway. Range was an issue...
Range JF17
Combat radius: 1,352 km[16] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,480 km[131] (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
Range J10
1100 km without in flight refueling
Ferry range: 3200 km
Since the figures are from Wiki... But I think we can skip the range issue.
I tend to think about the carpetbombing idea of some. We all have seen weapons becoming smarter so no need to carry huge loads Like F14 or Phantom.
I do not want push the planes in someones hands but I try to figure out what people say when they call others ridi.
Realistically... time will tell. None of us know for sure, officially there have been small tidbits about PLAAF prospects.
One major official tidbit is from the early 2000s when it was reported that the PLAAF had committed to eventually procuring up to 150 aircraft. The question is whether that is still valid, given the in-service J-10 and the under-development J-20(J-2X and more stuff we don't know about yet). But the PLAAF *knew* about the J-10 and J-20 even back then, so my personal belief is that the FC-1/J-9(as it might be called in-service according to Huitong's site)/JF-17 is still under serious consideration by the PLAAF.
Second comparatively minor but still official indication, is that Chinese officials have repeatedly said that the PLAAF is currently testing this aircraft and would make their decision "soon"(most recently at Dubai last month, but also at Farnborrough, Paris and other airshows). Soon is in quotations because there's no rush, PLAAF would probably prefer to induct the aircraft(if it does induct) with it's own WS-13A engines rather than Russian RD-93s.
So the rest is all speculation on our parts, and we can't be sure if China does induct or not. While it sure would be nice to see this aircraft in PLAAF service(if only because we love this aircraft alot, and many of us have been following it's development for nearly two decades), performance-wise it is not very important in the sense that the aircraft already performs remarkably well, and it benefits from the latest frontline BVR/IR/AShm/LGB weaponry that China uses on the J-10B and J-11B, and it fits our needs well.
An interesting thing is that while CAC/PAC continue to market and demo the aircraft with weapons like SD-10As and C-802s, for Pakistan itself China seems to allow better weaponry. Like it being reported that Pakistan's taking SD-10B deliveries(rather than SD-10A) and images of the aircraft flying with deadlier C-803s rather than -802s.
While we cannot be 100% sure whether China will induct this aircraft or not, it's fairly quantifiable that this aircraft is something we can be happy with - while it may not carry as much weaponry as a J-10(7 hardpoints vs. 11) it is still integrated with the same comprehensive weapons package that China's latest frontline aircraft(J-10, J-11) use.
One major official tidbit is from the early 2000s when it was reported that the PLAAF had committed to eventually procuring up to 150 aircraft. The question is whether that is still valid, given the in-service J-10 and the under-development J-20(J-2X and more stuff we don't know about yet). But the PLAAF *knew* about the J-10 and J-20 even back then, so my personal belief is that the FC-1/J-9(as it might be called in-service according to Huitong's site)/JF-17 is still under serious consideration by the PLAAF.
Second comparatively minor but still official indication, is that Chinese officials have repeatedly said that the PLAAF is currently testing this aircraft and would make their decision "soon"(most recently at Dubai last month, but also at Farnborrough, Paris and other airshows). Soon is in quotations because there's no rush, PLAAF would probably prefer to induct the aircraft(if it does induct) with it's own WS-13A engines rather than Russian RD-93s.
So the rest is all speculation on our parts, and we can't be sure if China does induct or not. While it sure would be nice to see this aircraft in PLAAF service(if only because we love this aircraft alot, and many of us have been following it's development for nearly two decades), performance-wise it is not very important in the sense that the aircraft already performs remarkably well, and it benefits from the latest frontline BVR/IR/AShm/LGB weaponry that China uses on the J-10B and J-11B, and it fits our needs well.
An interesting thing is that while CAC/PAC continue to market and demo the aircraft with weapons like SD-10As and C-802s, for Pakistan itself China seems to allow better weaponry. Like it being reported that Pakistan's taking SD-10B deliveries(rather than SD-10A) and images of the aircraft flying with deadlier C-803s rather than -802s.
While we cannot be 100% sure whether China will induct this aircraft or not, it's fairly quantifiable that this aircraft is something we can be happy with - while it may not carry as much weaponry as a J-10(7 hardpoints vs. 11) it is still integrated with the same comprehensive weapons package that China's latest frontline aircraft(J-10, J-11) use.
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Qasim, you do add valuable theory/practice. Indeed PAF will try to maximize the potential. It can afford cause it has invested and gets a much lower price. But if you wanna sell it to poor nations you do need to offer alternatives and cheaper options. The SD10B is something different though. Selling latest is not handy. Not for China and not for Pakistan. So they will have the best and latest (as far as China is willing to share) but others will have to wait.
I think we will see maybe some few hundreds going to PLAAF but not for now. If they have to get high tech in bigger numbers who is going to think about medium tech? And indeed J10 is a better plane. For that small price difference you have no alternative yet. Certainly if that has foreign parts.
I think we will see maybe some few hundreds going to PLAAF but not for now. If they have to get high tech in bigger numbers who is going to think about medium tech? And indeed J10 is a better plane. For that small price difference you have no alternative yet. Certainly if that has foreign parts.
asif iqbal
Banned Idiot
JF17 is a cost effective fighter, PAF does not have a budget of $100 million per plane and with that in mind this fighter probably ranks amongst the best in the PAF and probably the best fighter in the region with that respect
considering a ZDK-03 is around $60-70 million each and JF17 is $15-20 million, with 4 JF17 and 1 ZDK-03 package costs around $120-150 million
we all know the Su30MKI Saga, it is costing India around $75+ million per plane, with 4 Su30MKI and 1 Phalcon AWACS ($250+ million each) the Indian package is costing them >$ 600 million
thats around 4 times more expensive than Pakistan, considering Indian will try to be on the offensive in a air war they need more numbers, even a 3:1 advantage, it becomes pretty clear pretty fast that PAF has made some really good choices with regards to aircraft procurrment
in that regard alone the JF17 is a big sucess wether or not PLAAF will order or not, but if they did would be iceing on the cake!
but my feeling is the advanced trainers and J10 is keeping China busy for now
considering a ZDK-03 is around $60-70 million each and JF17 is $15-20 million, with 4 JF17 and 1 ZDK-03 package costs around $120-150 million
we all know the Su30MKI Saga, it is costing India around $75+ million per plane, with 4 Su30MKI and 1 Phalcon AWACS ($250+ million each) the Indian package is costing them >$ 600 million
thats around 4 times more expensive than Pakistan, considering Indian will try to be on the offensive in a air war they need more numbers, even a 3:1 advantage, it becomes pretty clear pretty fast that PAF has made some really good choices with regards to aircraft procurrment
in that regard alone the JF17 is a big sucess wether or not PLAAF will order or not, but if they did would be iceing on the cake!
but my feeling is the advanced trainers and J10 is keeping China busy for now
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Well, the PLAAF buying JF17s would not just be icing on the cake, it could make a massive difference to Pakistan if a major war broke out with India.
If both China and Pakistan operated JF17s, China could directly transfer PLAAF JF17s to the PAF to replace PAF losses within hours. If it really came down to it, PLAAF pilots could transfer with their aircraft, like the Soviets did during the Korean War. With these planes operating over Pakistani territory, there would be almost no way for India to prove direct Chinese involvement.
I think that is why Pakistan has always been so keen that the PLAAF also purchase the type. Export potential would only be a very distance secondary concern.
However, with the PLAAF apparently willing to release the J10 to the PAF, it could well be that Pakistan is more than happy to allow China to take back it's original commitment to buy JF17s if it means that in times of real crisis, the PLAAF is willing to transfer J10s to the PAF instead of JF17s.
If both China and Pakistan operated JF17s, China could directly transfer PLAAF JF17s to the PAF to replace PAF losses within hours. If it really came down to it, PLAAF pilots could transfer with their aircraft, like the Soviets did during the Korean War. With these planes operating over Pakistani territory, there would be almost no way for India to prove direct Chinese involvement.
I think that is why Pakistan has always been so keen that the PLAAF also purchase the type. Export potential would only be a very distance secondary concern.
However, with the PLAAF apparently willing to release the J10 to the PAF, it could well be that Pakistan is more than happy to allow China to take back it's original commitment to buy JF17s if it means that in times of real crisis, the PLAAF is willing to transfer J10s to the PAF instead of JF17s.