JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[asif iqbal]

Every part of a high performance jet is specialized work... And assuming that it cannot be done is a personal statement but based on what? JF17 was build with the philosophy that you can plug and play almost every part. That goes certainly for the engine. And it is not you buy a engine and just shuffle it in and hope for the best... Well, India did buy US engine for the LCA. They hardly can achieve anything but got a US engine installed. Going on your logic India is super duper.

Lion is known to give baseles personal opinions which have no substance

Anyone will know that a quick google search shows PAC delivered the first K-8 like 15 years ago so what they are building them in Pakistan then sending them to China for engine fit and then importing them back in? Poor logic

 

[jobjed]

Lion is known to give baseles personal opinions which have no substance

Anyone will know that a quick google search shows PAC delivered the first K-8 like 15 years ago so what they are building them in Pakistan then sending them to China for engine fit and then importing them back in? Poor logic

He's doubting the capability of Pakistan to change the internal structure of the JF-17 and install a new engine. I'm not familiar with the Pakistani aerospace industry so I can't make a judgement as to the validity of his concern.

On one hand, Pakistan is perfectly capable of building modern aircraft. On the other hand, changing the internal structure of an aircraft would require extensive redesigns and modifications; I'm not completely sure if Pakistan is able to redesign an aircraft by herself. If you know anything that might answer my query, please share.

 

[Zahid]

Just wanna ask block II, beside get the new IFR, is it get new radar and more payload capabilty compare to the block I? is it get a new radar too? thx

Not a new radar, but the same KLJ-7 with some improvements. We can not talk about more payload unless we assume an up-rated engine. We can say something definitive only when JF-17 Block-2 gets inducted and more news comes out.

Ability to carry more than 4000 Kg is quite sufficient for a light aircraft like JF-17. It does need more hard points though, so that it can carry more missiles, and dedicated pods do not mean less fuel or fewer missiles.

 

[Zahid]

Lion is known to give baseles personal opinions which have no substance

Anyone will know that a quick google search shows PAC delivered the first K-8 like 15 years ago so what they are building them in Pakistan then sending them to China for engine fit and then importing them back in? Poor logic

Lion is not saying something baseless. There is sense in his point. He is not saying that Pakistan can not put engines in aircraft. He is saying that Pakistan has not shown ability to switch engines on an aircraft. Given that Pakistan has never done such a job, he is right in raising concerns.

However I would like to point out that JF-17 indeed has been designed to make it easy to upgrade engines. During design, likely candidates seems to have been taken into account. For example RD-93's diameter seems to be smaller than the engine compartment, I've noticed. Indeed WS-13's diameter is a bit more than RD-93. But EJ-200 being much smaller. I do not see how fitting it inside JF-17 would be easy.

Apart from any changes to Engine compartment, Center of Gravity would need to be looked at. In case air-flow requirements change beyond a certain range, Inlet design would also need to be changed. I do not doubt Pakistan's ability to undertake such a task, but it has not been done yet. That is why it is OK for people to raise questions. It is not an emotional issue.

 

[Zahid]

Cross-posting my comment on PDF:

WS-13's specs match RD-93 quite closely. Its weight (1135 vs 1055 kg) & diameter (1.02 vs 1.00 m) are slightly more, and its length is slightly less (4.1 vs 4.2 m) and JF-17 can easily accommodate it. WS-13 would require a little more airflow since it has a little higher by-pass ratio (0.57 vs 0.49), but hopefully that was considered during JF-17's design phase.

I doubt if the same can be said for EJ-200. Its diameter (0.74 m) is a lot less and would certainly require structural modifications to JF-17's engine compartment. This would also mean change in fuselage design. We would be looking at a multi-year testing process to say the least. Unless Pakistan has some hope of getting EF-200 for future blocks (IV, V?) there would hardly be any sense in investing time, money, & effort into such a major modification. Obviously this issue has a number-of-aircraft dimension as well in order to spread the cost of redesign. But I must say that EJ-200 opens up a number of mouth-watering options with increase in range, weapons load, and agility.

 

[Zahid]

Interesting news that builds on the recent discussion on this thread. Saudis are definitely up to something. Any developments with Saudi Arabia would have a wide-ranging effect in GCC countries and beyond in the Arab world. Chinese must do everything possible to open this market up with Pakistan's help.
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Saudi defence delegation leaves
FROM THE NEWSPAPER
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Published
2014-01-23 07:35:04
ISLAMABAD: The 17-member Saudi defence delegation returned home on Wednesday after completing its three-day exploratory trip to Pakistan for identifying areas of cooperation.

The team led by Deputy Defence Minister Prince Salman bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz al Saud visited Pakistan after the two countries agreed on enhanced defence ties during a trip by Foreign Minister Saud al Faisal to Islamabad.

The two countries are describing the warming of bilateral ties as the beginning of a ‘new era in the strategic partnership’.

On the last day of the three-day visit, the delegation visited Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force.

According to a PAF source, the Saudi delegation has expressed interest in Pakistan’s indigenously produced command and control system.

Saudis also want to buy Super Mushshak training aircraft and JF-17 Thunder fighter jets.

The delegation had earlier visited General Headquarters in Rawalpindi and defence industries in Kamra and Wah.

The trip is expected to be followed by expert-level discussions on areas that Riyadh would like to benefit from Pakistan’s expertise. In addition to radars and aircraft, the Saudis are keen on training and getting Pakistani experts in their services.

 

[Zahid]

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Saudi eyeing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet, modeled from U.S. F-16
Special to WorldTribune.com
ABU DHABI — Saudi Arabia has been examining the prospect of becoming a partner in Pakistan’s fighter jet program.
Officials said the Saudi Defense Ministry has been reviewing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet program.
Pakistani JF-17
Pakistani JF-17
The officials said representatives of the ministry as well as the Royal Saudi Air Force were examining the feasibility of procuring JF-17 as part of cooperation with Islamabad.
“This project could provide the kingdom with technology that could be used in future projects,” an official said.
On Jan. 20, Saudi Deputy Defense Minister Prince Salman Bin Sultan visited Pakistan and toured the JF-17 project, modeled after the U.S.-origin F-16 and which entered production in late 2013. Salman, hosted by Pakistani Chief of Staff Gen. Raheel Sharif, was said to have focused on enhanced defense cooperation, including training and an exchange of expertise.
“During the meeting, matters of mutual interest, regional security and
enhanced bilateral defense collaboration including training exchange program
were discussed,” an official statement said.
Pakistan has been deemed the leading strategic ally of Saudi Arabia.
Western diplomats said Pakistan, with assistance from China, has provided
ballistic missiles and non-conventional weapons expertise to the Gulf
Cooperation Council kingdom.
Officials said Pakistan has offered to supply the Saudi military with
aircraft, main battle tanks and submarines. They said the offer included
technology transfer as well as co-production in Saudi Arabia.
“The expectation is that Saudi purchases from Pakistan will increase
over the coming year,” the official said.

 

[Munir]

More........

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Saudi eyeing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet, modeled from U.S. F-16
Special to WorldTribune.com
ABU DHABI — Saudi Arabia has been examining the prospect of becoming a partner in Pakistan’s fighter jet program.
Officials said the Saudi Defense Ministry has been reviewing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet program.
Pakistani JF-17
Pakistani JF-17
The officials said representatives of the ministry as well as the Royal Saudi Air Force were examining the feasibility of procuring JF-17 as part of cooperation with Islamabad.
“This project could provide the kingdom with technology that could be used in future projects,” an official said.
On Jan. 20, Saudi Deputy Defense Minister Prince Salman Bin Sultan visited Pakistan and toured the JF-17 project, modeled after the U.S.-origin F-16 and which entered production in late 2013. Salman, hosted by Pakistani Chief of Staff Gen. Raheel Sharif, was said to have focused on enhanced defense cooperation, including training and an exchange of expertise.
“During the meeting, matters of mutual interest, regional security and
enhanced bilateral defense collaboration including training exchange program
were discussed,” an official statement said.
Pakistan has been deemed the leading strategic ally of Saudi Arabia.
Western diplomats said Pakistan, with assistance from China, has provided
ballistic missiles and non-conventional weapons expertise to the Gulf
Cooperation Council kingdom.
Officials said Pakistan has offered to supply the Saudi military with
aircraft, main battle tanks and submarines. They said the offer included
technology transfer as well as co-production in Saudi Arabia.
“The expectation is that Saudi purchases from Pakistan will increase
over the coming year,” the official said.

Deino: The alliances in the middle east are extremely complex. You may even add that KSA will MAYBE buy 2-3 squadrons of block 3 JF17KSA developed inside Saudia just to counter Iran or showing something to their ex best friends that are getting closer with Iran. I still stay to may option that Saudi will integrate EJ200 in JF17. Would it sound logical or predictable for outsiders? Very difficult to tell. Slowly over the next 6 months you will hear more. But if the EJ200 will be integrated them expect a whole lot more western high tech weapon being added to JF17. That would be seriously a challenge to J10/FC20 being exported cause there is something that is very good new selling point... A very decent JF17 design added with western punch of avionics, engines and weapons.

 

[Deino]

@ Munir !

To admit I'm surprised by these developments and even if I rate the FC-1/JF-17 quite high I think it is still a class below the Gripen. "Lower" does not mean worthless but simply due to a different approach, a different layout and even more manufacturing. Comparing what You get for Your money it surely is a good deal but if Saudi Arabia can buy F-15SE, Typhoon and whatever ... YES, I'm surpsrised.

Again, I don't exclude the integration of the EJ200 into the JF-17 from a technical standpoint and even if Saudi Arabia shurely could buy the EJ200 I still can't see any possibility how the Saudi Aerospace Industry (if there is any ?) can integrate the new powerplant by their own, can madify the airframe as necesary - and that excludes simply the delivery of "green" aircraft right from CAC or Kamra since there will be some structural changes as well for sure. And all that without any asistance, consultation from CAC ??? ... and as such no European partner will agree on the delivery of any EJ200 to China.

Deino

 

[Munir]

@ Munir !

To admit I'm surprised by these developments and even if I rate the FC-1/JF-17 quite high I think it is still a class below the Gripen. "Lower" does not mean worthless but simply due to a different approach, a different layout and even more manufacturing. Comparing what You get for Your money it surely is a good deal but if Saudi Arabia can buy F-15SE, Typhoon and whatever ... YES, I'm surpsrised.

Again, I don't exclude the integration of the EJ200 into the JF-17 from a technical standpoint and even if Saudi Arabia shurely could buy the EJ200 I still can't see any possibility how the Saudi Aerospace Industry (if there is any ?) can integrate the new powerplant by their own, can madify the airframe as necesary - and that excludes simply the delivery of "green" aircraft right from CAC or Kamra since there will be some structural changes as well for sure. And all that without any asistance, consultation from CAC ??? ... and as such no European partner will agree on the delivery of any EJ200 to China.

Deino

I had not expected it 3 months ago... But there were some signs that were showing the change of the wind slowly. I can not tell more about that. So KSA has EJ200. They buy everything they want so getting consultants from Europe and a can of best Pakistani engineers and design assistance from China would not be a tough issue. After all, LCA has US engine so why would it be that difficult to get EJ200 fro JF17. In this world is all about cash. And KSA bought already some Chinese equipment lately... Whether they can do it? In the F15SE presentation it is written that the work will be done in KSA. If they can do that why not...

According Dawn (posted by Aeronaut)
The two countries are describing the warming of bilateral ties as the beginning of a ‘new era in the strategic partnership’
The delegation visited Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force.
Saudi delegation has expressed interest in Pakistan’s indigenously produced command and control system.
Saudis also want to buy Super Mushshak training aircraft and JF-17 Thunder fighter jets.
The delegation, visited the General Headquarters in Rawalpindi and defence industries in Kamra and Wah.
The trip is expected to be followed by expert-level discussions on areas that Riyadh would like to benefit from Pakistan’s expertise.
In addition to radars and aircraft, the Saudis are keen on training and getting Pakistani experts in their services.