JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
plawolf
Lieutenant General
If the Saudis are making a serious move to buy the JF17, it would signal that they have grave concerns about the dependability of their western supplied weapons as they would be in effect making a big downgrade compared to what they are operating already.
The Eurofighter and F15S can have the best specs in the world on paper and it would all count for nought if an enemy can switch off all their fancy electronics or shut down their engines or eject their pilots comes a real war.
In addition,with America well on its way to achieving energy independence and pulling away from the Middle East, the Saudis may be starting to that they need to hitch their wagon to a new backer and protector. If the Saudis can strike a strategic alliance with China, not only would they gain a powerful backer and provider of security to replace the vacuum type US disengagement could leave, it would also take a powerful backer away from Iran.
If the Saudis are indeed seriously interested in the JF17 ( and that's a big 'if'), it will be because of those strategic and political reason rather than because of the raw performance of he JF17.
Who knows, if the Saudis are serious about switching to Chinese arms, they may just prove to be the sugar daddy with deep pockets SAC has been dreaming and praying for to bankroll their J31 development.
The Eurofighter and F15S can have the best specs in the world on paper and it would all count for nought if an enemy can switch off all their fancy electronics or shut down their engines or eject their pilots comes a real war.
In addition,with America well on its way to achieving energy independence and pulling away from the Middle East, the Saudis may be starting to that they need to hitch their wagon to a new backer and protector. If the Saudis can strike a strategic alliance with China, not only would they gain a powerful backer and provider of security to replace the vacuum type US disengagement could leave, it would also take a powerful backer away from Iran.
If the Saudis are indeed seriously interested in the JF17 ( and that's a big 'if'), it will be because of those strategic and political reason rather than because of the raw performance of he JF17.
Who knows, if the Saudis are serious about switching to Chinese arms, they may just prove to be the sugar daddy with deep pockets SAC has been dreaming and praying for to bankroll their J31 development.
CNBC article some months ago... Interesting bits.
Do Saudis have a new best friend? Don't bet on it
Text Size
Published: Monday, 11 Nov 2013 | 4:48 PM ET
By: Yousef Gamal El-Din | Anchor, CNBC (EMEA)
Twitter
50
LinkedIn
2
Share
Fayez Nureldine | AFP | Getty Images
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry (L) shakes hands with Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal at the end of a joint press conference last week in Riyadh.
Tensions are flaring between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, prompting the oil-rich desert kingdom to forger closer economic and energy ties with another world power: China. But don't look for China to replace the U.S. as Saudi Arabia's closest ally any time soon.
This weekend's talks between Iran and Western powers over that country's nuclear ambitions ended with no deal in place, but that doesn't mean the Saudis weren't shocked and upset by the U.S. move to thaw long-frozen relations with Iran, Saudis Arabia's greatest regional and religious rival.
Saudi Arabia was already disappointed by the Obama administration's decision to side with Russia and opt against military strikes on Syria, effectively ending Saudi hopes that the U.S. would turn the tide against the Iran-allied government of Bashar Assad in Damascus.
"The Syrian issue was the straw that broke the camel's back. The kingdom is concerned that any victory for Assad would boost Iran's regional influence," Naser Al-Tamimi, author of "China-Saudi Arabia Relations, 1990-2012: Marriage of Convenience or Strategic Alliance?" explained to CNBC.
(Read more: Oil prices may be losing Iranian 'risk premium)
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry visited Riyadh last week before traveling to talks on Iran, but in a veiled message, his Saudi counterpart conveyed that the U.S. needed to do more.
"A true relationship between friends is based on sincerity, candor and frankness, rather than mere courtesy," Foreign Minister Saud Al-Faisal said during a joint news conference.
Enter China
Play Video
How will US shale exports impact Asia?
Amos Hochstein, deputy assistant secretary for Energy Diplomacy at the U.S. Department of State explains the ongoing debate behind U.S. gas exports.
The latest tensions between traditional allies the U.S. and Saudi Arabia come as the Saudi-China relationship has been growing rapidly in recent years.
In 2009, Saudi exports to China exceeded those to the U.S. for the first time. That comes as U.S. oil imports are expected to fall overall, thanks to its own domestic energy boom.
Chinese investments in Saudi Arabia are on the rise too: China has spent massively on oil refineries in Saudi Arabia and even signed a nuclear cooperation agreement with the desert kingdom.
However, a full swing by the OPEC's top exporter toward China is complicated by the fact that oil is still priced in U.S. dollars, and Saudi Arabia's currency is pegged to the greenback. The Saudis have also invested billions of dollars of oil revenue in U.S. Treasury bonds over the years.
Moreover, the Chinese didn't help their own cause with the Saudis when they blocked United Nations Security Council resolutions against Syria and Iran.
(Read more: UAE 'not threatened' by US shale boom, oil minister says)
Perhaps most importantly, China can't provide the same security guarantees that the U.S. can. Saudi Arabia is unlikely to detach itself from its long-standing military and intelligence alliance with the Americans, said Thomas Lippman, author of "Saudi Arabia on the Edge: The Uncertain Future of an American Ally." Not only is China's appetite for such a role limited, but its military doesn't have the capacity to provide security for the region or patrol its shipping routes.
Al-Tamimi concurred: "Saudi Arabia and China recognize that, for at least the next decade, the United States will remain the only country in the world capable of projecting substantial amounts of conventional military and soft power into the Middle East."
What it means for oil
Play Video
Don't expect OPEC price war: Pro
Tom Essaye, president at Kinsale Trading, explains why he doesn't expect to see a return of Iranian crude on the market as a result of the talks in Switzerland.
China became the world's biggest oil importer just this year, and already buys some crude from Iran and Russia using its own currency, the yuan. But even that is unlikely to be enough to tempt the Saudis away from the dollar and undermine the currency, if only because Saudi Arabia's so deeply invested in the greenback.
"Why would the Saudis damage the U.S. dollar by denominating oil sales in another currency? They have major holdings in the U.S. that could only be damaged by dumping the dollar," Neil Atkinson, head of analysis at Lloyd's List Intelligence, told CNBC.
(Read more: Risks remain due to sluggish recovery: OPEC)
Indeed, there is no significant indication of even a gradual reallocation of petrodollars right now, according to U.S. Treasury data.
And for now at least, U.S. imports of crude from Saudi Arabia are at their highest levels since the post-crisis slump in 2009, according to data from the Energy Information Administration.
Do Saudis have a new best friend? Don't bet on it
Text Size
Published: Monday, 11 Nov 2013 | 4:48 PM ET
By: Yousef Gamal El-Din | Anchor, CNBC (EMEA)
50
2
Share
Fayez Nureldine | AFP | Getty Images
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry (L) shakes hands with Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal at the end of a joint press conference last week in Riyadh.
Tensions are flaring between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, prompting the oil-rich desert kingdom to forger closer economic and energy ties with another world power: China. But don't look for China to replace the U.S. as Saudi Arabia's closest ally any time soon.
This weekend's talks between Iran and Western powers over that country's nuclear ambitions ended with no deal in place, but that doesn't mean the Saudis weren't shocked and upset by the U.S. move to thaw long-frozen relations with Iran, Saudis Arabia's greatest regional and religious rival.
Saudi Arabia was already disappointed by the Obama administration's decision to side with Russia and opt against military strikes on Syria, effectively ending Saudi hopes that the U.S. would turn the tide against the Iran-allied government of Bashar Assad in Damascus.
"The Syrian issue was the straw that broke the camel's back. The kingdom is concerned that any victory for Assad would boost Iran's regional influence," Naser Al-Tamimi, author of "China-Saudi Arabia Relations, 1990-2012: Marriage of Convenience or Strategic Alliance?" explained to CNBC.
(Read more: Oil prices may be losing Iranian 'risk premium)
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry visited Riyadh last week before traveling to talks on Iran, but in a veiled message, his Saudi counterpart conveyed that the U.S. needed to do more.
"A true relationship between friends is based on sincerity, candor and frankness, rather than mere courtesy," Foreign Minister Saud Al-Faisal said during a joint news conference.
Enter China
Play Video
How will US shale exports impact Asia?
Amos Hochstein, deputy assistant secretary for Energy Diplomacy at the U.S. Department of State explains the ongoing debate behind U.S. gas exports.
The latest tensions between traditional allies the U.S. and Saudi Arabia come as the Saudi-China relationship has been growing rapidly in recent years.
In 2009, Saudi exports to China exceeded those to the U.S. for the first time. That comes as U.S. oil imports are expected to fall overall, thanks to its own domestic energy boom.
Chinese investments in Saudi Arabia are on the rise too: China has spent massively on oil refineries in Saudi Arabia and even signed a nuclear cooperation agreement with the desert kingdom.
However, a full swing by the OPEC's top exporter toward China is complicated by the fact that oil is still priced in U.S. dollars, and Saudi Arabia's currency is pegged to the greenback. The Saudis have also invested billions of dollars of oil revenue in U.S. Treasury bonds over the years.
Moreover, the Chinese didn't help their own cause with the Saudis when they blocked United Nations Security Council resolutions against Syria and Iran.
(Read more: UAE 'not threatened' by US shale boom, oil minister says)
Perhaps most importantly, China can't provide the same security guarantees that the U.S. can. Saudi Arabia is unlikely to detach itself from its long-standing military and intelligence alliance with the Americans, said Thomas Lippman, author of "Saudi Arabia on the Edge: The Uncertain Future of an American Ally." Not only is China's appetite for such a role limited, but its military doesn't have the capacity to provide security for the region or patrol its shipping routes.
Al-Tamimi concurred: "Saudi Arabia and China recognize that, for at least the next decade, the United States will remain the only country in the world capable of projecting substantial amounts of conventional military and soft power into the Middle East."
What it means for oil
Play Video
Don't expect OPEC price war: Pro
Tom Essaye, president at Kinsale Trading, explains why he doesn't expect to see a return of Iranian crude on the market as a result of the talks in Switzerland.
China became the world's biggest oil importer just this year, and already buys some crude from Iran and Russia using its own currency, the yuan. But even that is unlikely to be enough to tempt the Saudis away from the dollar and undermine the currency, if only because Saudi Arabia's so deeply invested in the greenback.
"Why would the Saudis damage the U.S. dollar by denominating oil sales in another currency? They have major holdings in the U.S. that could only be damaged by dumping the dollar," Neil Atkinson, head of analysis at Lloyd's List Intelligence, told CNBC.
(Read more: Risks remain due to sluggish recovery: OPEC)
Indeed, there is no significant indication of even a gradual reallocation of petrodollars right now, according to U.S. Treasury data.
And for now at least, U.S. imports of crude from Saudi Arabia are at their highest levels since the post-crisis slump in 2009, according to data from the Energy Information Administration.
It seems more likely the Saudis are approaching the Chinese to spite the United States over the latter's attempted reprochement with Iran, rather than as the beginning of a fundamental and long term shift in its arms procurement policy.
But if the US succeeds with its reproachement with Iran, Chinese leverage over Iran, as well as China's ability to use Iran as leverage with the United States, will decrease. But it seems unlikely China could really regain equivalent measure of leverage over the US by closer relationship with Saudi Arabia. So there seems to be little in it for China to abandon Iran for Saudi Arabia. FC-1 and J-31 seem unlikely to be enough incentive for China to change its posture in the middleeast. CAC probably does not have the same leverage over Chinese foreign policy that Dassault appears to have over those of France.
Last edited:
Zahid
Junior Member
I think we need to get back to topic. International Relations may have some bearing on Weapons systems, but let us not get side-tracked.
Saudis have shown interest in JF-17, just like many others. Saudis have a great degree of security cooperation with Pakistan, much of which does not show in forums such as SDF, and therefore may be surprising to some. Pakistan may be able to exploit its relations and leverage to clinch a deal with Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for mutual advantage and result in a better / faster development of JF-17. Let us leave at that for now. Time will tell. No use speculating too much.
Saudis have shown interest in JF-17, just like many others. Saudis have a great degree of security cooperation with Pakistan, much of which does not show in forums such as SDF, and therefore may be surprising to some. Pakistan may be able to exploit its relations and leverage to clinch a deal with Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for mutual advantage and result in a better / faster development of JF-17. Let us leave at that for now. Time will tell. No use speculating too much.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
We all know that Western equipment even NATO partners get aircraft that have seals anf switches that if opened or broken activate to tell the supplier which invalidates the guarantees and agreements
A Turkish Air Force F16 which crashed into the Aegean Sea was recovered by the Turkish navy and after inspection the air force found seals locked into the aircraft and many other pieces equipment which they did not know about and hell Turkey is a NATO member and has the second largest standing army in NATO
Saudi F15 shot down two Iranain F4s in the 1980s they did only do that because the USAF E3 AWACS illuminated the targets all the Saudi pilot did was launch the missile try doing this against the Israeli F16 or F15s no chance
The new F16 C/D Block 52+ for the PAF are not allowd to leave the Pakistan air space they came with very strict operating conditions why do you think the rest of the order for 77 aircraft was cancelled
So whoever says the JF17 is not as well equipped as its Western counterparts really doesn't understand the whole reason for the project nor the aircraft, Pakistan has the source codes for the JF-17 how else did they integrate the Brazilian Mar-1
Pakistan can arm them with nuclear LACM as a matter of fact they can arm them with any weapon they want and it will work and the JF-17 has zero restriction, it can operate over the sea in the air over enemy territory wherever is the combat zone
In respect of this I would have the JF-17 over even a F15 Slam Eagle it offers Pakistan a capability no other aircraft will ever offer no matter how good friends we are with the supplier
I just hope the next Block II 50 units are delivered faster than the first Block I 50 we need a fast induction we need a vast vast fleet of this aircraft in all configurations
Last edited:
Equation
Lieutenant General
Perhaps, but the reason I believe that the Saudis are approaching the Chinese over the US is because they no longer had a leverage on the prices of oil because the US are getting it more of it domestically with all that fracking. As a result the Saudis are dipping their toes into new waters as they look towards their future, because as they grow they too need to use the oil for themselves to keep their economy growing.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I think that CNBC article is tremendously short-sighted. Even though it's true that it'll be a while before Saudi Arabia can break dependence on the US, who says China is the automatic next "go to" country for Saudi Arabia to hitch a ride on? China wants a multi-polar world not to be the replacement of the US that you always hear American think what is China's goal around the world. If anything countries should learn from the US experience of wanting to be the policeman of the world. Why is this US-Saudi "split" after decades of close relations even being discussed if it weren't for the Saudis seeing themselves left out in the cold by US foreign policy? Why would China want to be the next US when it comes to policing the world after seeing how long held relations can be frayed by balancing allied interests with your own? Why would China want the headache of making all those promises Americans make to every country that they can't keep because every one of them have their own interests and they're bound to conflict?
If the JF-17 talks are true, what more of a symbol of where Saudi Arabia is heading. A Chinese designed aircraft built by Pakistan with European avionics. Where's the US in that equation? That's the stop-gap measure on the road to being an independent power. The Syrian situation just showed Saudi Arabia can't rely on the US. Why would they want that relation with China? China will probably be very happy to see Saudi Arabia become an independent power.
And why is the American oil-shale revolution always used a some sort of taunt to the world? So what! American oil independence doesn't eliminate oil as a strategic resource. If you go by the scenario of the taunting, oil prices drop meaning that's good for China. If China is the largest consumer of oil and Saudi Arabia's biggest customer, the money keeps flowing and China's influence grows.
If the JF-17 talks are true, what more of a symbol of where Saudi Arabia is heading. A Chinese designed aircraft built by Pakistan with European avionics. Where's the US in that equation? That's the stop-gap measure on the road to being an independent power. The Syrian situation just showed Saudi Arabia can't rely on the US. Why would they want that relation with China? China will probably be very happy to see Saudi Arabia become an independent power.
And why is the American oil-shale revolution always used a some sort of taunt to the world? So what! American oil independence doesn't eliminate oil as a strategic resource. If you go by the scenario of the taunting, oil prices drop meaning that's good for China. If China is the largest consumer of oil and Saudi Arabia's biggest customer, the money keeps flowing and China's influence grows.
News has it that the deal is sweetened, a customized version as per their requirements, weapon source code/ integration aided by PAC engineers and more freedom of making the aircraft parts as they require.
It must be remembered that both US and Europe only allow limited technology transfer just to make sure the cusomer remain dependant on them and weapon source code is simply a no go area for their customers particularly in Middle East, even UAE didnt get source codes for AMRAAMS for their blk 60 for which they paid the whole development cost. This is why Saudi's are interested in jf-17.
The project is now handeled by a joint sales and marketing team by AVIC-PAC that is responsible for maintanibility and supportability of the weapon system including engine and other crucial systems. As for Russian objection, i dont see it happening as Saudis never have and probably never will import any Russian fighter in the near future so its like easy money in an alien defense market with rd-93s, why not?
As for China, Saudis already operate Chinese PLZ-45s so no issues in negotiating with Chinese either, a win win situation.
It must be remembered that both US and Europe only allow limited technology transfer just to make sure the cusomer remain dependant on them and weapon source code is simply a no go area for their customers particularly in Middle East, even UAE didnt get source codes for AMRAAMS for their blk 60 for which they paid the whole development cost. This is why Saudi's are interested in jf-17.
The project is now handeled by a joint sales and marketing team by AVIC-PAC that is responsible for maintanibility and supportability of the weapon system including engine and other crucial systems. As for Russian objection, i dont see it happening as Saudis never have and probably never will import any Russian fighter in the near future so its like easy money in an alien defense market with rd-93s, why not?
As for China, Saudis already operate Chinese PLZ-45s so no issues in negotiating with Chinese either, a win win situation.
Last edited:
