JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Indianfighter]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Your price for Fulcrums must be old then. Remember Russia is running double digit inflation in a year, so you have to factor that from your old original quoted prices. That's why you're going to pay more for future MKIs and the aircraft carrier. I seriously seriously doubt that future modernized Fulcrums in the market will be cheap.

No. I'm refering to Fulcrum's price from a

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from March this year. I guess the FC-1 can compete well only in the trainer market.

As far as MKIs are concerned, Russia demanded a price escalation of 5% every year instead of the decade old 2.55%. As I said, falling dollar rates will lead to more price increases.

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Those figures are outdated. I've seen the same price quoted well over a decade ago. In the 90s, an Su-27SK cost $33 million in those dollars. The 20-30 million price would be only right for a MiG-29 back in that decade.

Its not realistic in 2008.

I would consider 5% annual price increase to be unrealistic and unsustainable.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Your price for Fulcrums must be old then. Remember Russia is running double digit inflation in a year, so you have to factor that from your old original quoted prices. That's why you're going to pay more for future MKIs and the aircraft carrier. I seriously seriously doubt that future modernized Fulcrums in the market will be cheap.

Furthermore, the more modernized Fulcrums have superior avionics compared to the JF-17, such as AESA radar. That will inevitably drive up the price.

 

[Delbert]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

No. I'm refering to Fulcrum's price from a

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from March this year. I guess the FC-1 can compete well only in the trainer market.

As far as MKIs are concerned, Russia demanded a price escalation of 5% every year instead of the decade old 2.55%. As I said, falling dollar rates will lead to more price increases.

I don't think your info's are accurate.

India sign a deal with Russia in 2005/06 to upgrade its 67 MiG-29s for US$888 million. This reflect for around $13.3 million dollars upgrade cost per aircraft.

I don't think a brand new MIG-29 is just simply worth around $25 million USD.On the news paper (Asian wall street journal) I saw an article written India signed a deal for MIG-29K each at around $33 or $38 million dollars each. I am not sure on the price, but its between those two amounts.

JF-17 will not reach $23 million USD, Zimbabwe paid $200 Million USD for 12 aircrafts. That only reflects at $16.7 million USD each.

 

[Indianfighter]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Well, I'd still take Ria Novosti's estimate of $25-$30 mn as of March 2008. Crobato, the price over a decade ago must be inclusive of weapons, but this is only the flyaway price (IN paid $45 m per unit for MiG-29 KUB package).

Maybe the reason why PLAAF has not announced any commitment to FC-1 is because though it's not much cheaper than a J-10, it does not have a proportionate performance. For it's 'backbone', PLAAF can as well induct more J-8s.

JF-17 will not reach $23 million USD, Zimbabwe paid $200 Million USD for 12 aircrafts. That only reflects at $16.7 million USD each.

I doubt whether Zimbabwe is purchasing it. Firstly, it reportedly paid that amount in 2004, at a time when FC-1 was barely in it's initial stages of testing. I don't think any air-force commits to incomplete combat aircraft.

Secondly, there was no coverage of this news either in the Chinese or Pakistani media, but in some opinion piece of a private society. This purchase is doubtful.

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

So you're comparing flyaway prices to export prices? Facts remain that when you pay for a brand new MiG-29 (doesn't have AESA yet), its already over 40 million contract price. The 23 million for the FC-1 may already be the contract prices.

 

[Indianfighter]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I'm not counting PLAAF subsidies at all, but considering only the market price (or export price in PLAAF parlance) for the FC-1, without weapons. The equivalent price for MiG-29 is $25-30 mn (and along with weapons and training, it's $40 mn apiece as IN's purchase demonstrated). FC-1's market price with weapons will be in excess of $30 mn.

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Wrong. Export price is already generally close to the actual contract prices without the specifics. Missiles add little a contract since it only applies to the basic armament or quite often none at all. Quite often, especially when missiles are bought in a large volume, the contract for missiles is separate.

Sorry but you're alluding that export price = flyaway price is so out of it. Flyaway price does not even include the margins for the manufacturer and companies involved. Its just the cost of the product only minus everything else. An export price already includes not just these markups, but also a three year warranty and service plan, plus basic training for the pilots and technicians. Basically the core services needed to get the plane up and running.

The flyaway cost of the FC-1 is estimated and mentioned before between the 12 to 17 million range.

 

[flyzies]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

The flyaway cost of the FC-1 is estimated and mentioned before between the 12 to 17 million range.

Ok, but what will the export price be? Because after all, that is the price which China and Pakistan will be selling these planes at...

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Based on this and what you said earlier about J-7, it seems that PLAAF gets a highly subsidized price for J-10 and FC-1. But I'm talking about FC-1's market /export price, which cannot be lesser than small Hawk trainers.

so after the 50% premium which you say, an FC-1 will cost $23 million in the export market (without weapons). I doubt if it can compete against Fulcrums, that cost only a few million more.

it's not subsidized price, this is the real price. The real price is around 10 to 15 million each. As for export price, in the end of the day, they charge whatever is the most competitive. It's hard to see it going over $20 million each though.

Well, I'd still take Ria Novosti's estimate of $25-$30 mn as of March 2008. Crobato, the price over a decade ago must be inclusive of weapons, but this is only the flyaway price (IN paid $45 m per unit for MiG-29 KUB package).

well, mig-35 right now is probably going to be 40-50 million based on what I've been reading. Of course, old Mig-29s are a thing of past.

Maybe the reason why PLAAF has not announced any commitment to FC-1 is because though it's not much cheaper than a J-10, it does not have a proportionate performance. For it's 'backbone', PLAAF can as well induct more J-8s.

as I mentioned, they just haven't come up with the PLAAF versions yet. Certainly, with the slowness of the L-15 project, things are getting easier for jf-17. They will place orders.

I'm not counting PLAAF subsidies at all, but considering only the market price (or export price in PLAAF parlance) for the FC-1, without weapons. The equivalent price for MiG-29 is $25-30 mn (and along with weapons and training, it's $40 mn apiece as IN's purchase demonstrated). FC-1's market price with weapons will be in excess of $30 mn.

export price includes a lot of these stuff already. it's not plaaf subsides, that's the base price.