Japanese Mitsubishi X2 Stealth Aircraft News

b787

Captain
@b787 ... you are the one who doesn't get it. We are talking about 5th gen fighter. True ... engine is a big part but many many others as important

you haven't answered my question regarding your claim that most of 5th gen will be only operational after 2025 ... which ones? ... if you couldn't back it up ... just admit it :eek:

There is a strong reason why Japanese still use foreign engines and radars on their jet fighters .... :p
IHI is following a different method, they sell civil aircraft engines, each and every B-787, B-777 or even B-747 has Japanese parts,

The F-110 and F-100 are foreign but who cares, they are made in Japan and power F-15s and F-2s, their T-4s trainers have Japanese designed engines, their P-1 patrol aircraft has jet engines designed in Japan.

What do you think is better sell your engines and get money with the second largest airplane maker and build engines with the largest aircraft engine maker or clone and copy and screw your partner?
They are making money, the USA trust them and their XF-5 has the weight to thrust ratio of a F-110, in a smaller scale.

You are thinking their Shinshin has a primitive engine, it has not, it has the basic technologies of a fourth generation fighter, engines are not measure only by brute force, but the thrust to weight ratio they generate, XF-5 is a modern and advanced engine
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
@b787 ... I never said that Shinshin was a primitive engine ... thats is purely your imagination ... take out your wild imagination .. no place here in this forum

and you still haven't answered my question regarding your claim of "most 5th gen after 2025" .. why is that? can't back it up from your wild imaginations? :p
 

Zool

Junior Member
the information i have read, is it has avionics or at least basic ones to be tested, the engine already is testing TVC nozzles, but to be fair the F-3 is to be deployed it by 2030, but it will be not a 5th generation but a 6th generation similar to what Europe is doing now

Well, I would agree the avionics would likely be very basic at this point being used in a scaled down demo airframe and without the final engines the full sized bird will use. I suppose TVC could be argued as 5th Gen, although I think a better definition would be 'super maneuverability', because it's less about how you get there and TVC has been in use by Russian/Indian 4th Gen aircraft for a long while now.

Saying X-2 will be developed into a 6th Gen aircraft is a big statement... Qualifying 6th Gen characteristics at this point (even the basic question of manned/unmanned) has yet to be done.

Everything I have read and seen of the X-2 indicates an early attempt at developing a 5th Generation Fighter. Saying the demo plane is already equipped with the basic 5th Gen systems, when its not, and then following that by saying it will evolve into a 6th Gen aircraft is the type of claim that needs supporting data to back it up. Otherwise we'll get more of these arguments going on I think.
 

b787

Captain
Well, I would agree the avionics would likely be very basic at this point being used in a scaled down demo airframe and without the final engines the full sized bird will use. I suppose TVC could be argued as 5th Gen, although I think a better definition would be 'super maneuverability', because it's less about how you get there and TVC has been in use by Russian/Indian 4th Gen aircraft for a long while now.

Saying X-2 will be developed into a 6th Gen aircraft is a big statement... Qualifying 6th Gen characteristics at this point (even the basic question of manned/unmanned) has yet to be done.

Everything I have read and seen of the X-2 indicates an early attempt at developing a 5th Generation Fighter. Saying the demo plane is already equipped with the basic 5th Gen systems, when its not, and then following that by saying it will evolve into a 6th Gen aircraft is the type of claim that needs supporting data to back it up. Otherwise we'll get more of these arguments going on I think.
whSqCpx.jpg
this is the basic idea F-3, it is said to be a 6th generation
 

b787

Captain
6th gen by Japanese ... thats is huge news to me :eek:

@b787 .. Is it official or your opinion (read imagination) :p

Japan unveiled its new fighter demonstrator to the public on Thursday, giving a glimpse of what the future of fighter jets may look like. Meant to showcase a variety of new tech, the X-2 stealth aircraft will almost certainly lead to a sixth-generation fighter aircraft designed to counter the new breed of advanced Chinese fighters.

Painted in the red and white colors of Japan, the X-2 was unveiled to the press at Nagoya Aerospace Systems Works, part of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The plane, also known as "Shinshin" ("Spirit of the Heart") has been in development for more than a decade and is expected to fly for the first time next month.


During World War II, Japan lost air superiority over its territory and suffered devastation from high-flying U.S. bombers. In the aftermath of the war, a first class fighter fleet became one of Japan's main defensive goals. A key U.S. ally in the postwar period, Japan was granted access to the newest American fighters, including the F-104 Starfighter, F-4 Phantom, and F-15 Eagle.

In the early 2000s, the Japanese government operated under the assumption that it would be an export customer for the F-22 Raptor. To Japan's surprise, exports of the F-22 were banned under the 2006 Obey Amendment on the grounds that technology built into the F-22 was too sensitive to be sent abroad. Japan, which had expected to begin replacing its F-15s with F-22s right away, was faced with a dilemma.

The country had started work on the X-2 in the mid-2000s, as a hedge against such a ban. The design was frozen around 2005, when the developmental model's stealth capability was tested at a radar cross section facility in France. A first flight was scheduled in 2014, but an issue with the vector thrust control system caused a delay.

Japanese officials have been relatively tight-lipped about X-2's features, but some are obvious. The plane is 46-feet long with a wingspan of 29 feet. The aircraft has a large bubble canopy, giving the pilot excellent visibility in all directions. It is a twin-engine design, utilizing two Ishikawa Heavy Industries low-bypass turbofan engines, each providing a maximum five tons of thrust. The X-2 also has angled twin vertical stabilizers set at an even steeper angle than the
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.

One particularly interesting feature are the thrust vectoring paddles extending from the engine exhausts. These paddles allow the pilot to control the direction of the exhaust, greatly increasing an aircraft's maneuverability. First used on the
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experimental aircraft, they are also
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on the F-22 Raptor. X-2's thrust vector paddles are serrated for stealth purposes.

Future armament for X-2 is also under development. Japan has developed the
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, a long-range missile with an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar as a seeker. AAM-4B was the first air-to-air missile to incorporate AESA radars, which are just now becoming standard on fighters. Unfortunately, AAM-4B missiles are too large to be carried internally by the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters Japan has on order, and would be difficult to fit in any future fighter.

An
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by Japan and the United Kingdom this month to pursue joint air-to-air missile development points to the possibility of the AAM-4B seeker being placed on the
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, a beyond visual range missile designed to fit in internal weapons bays and capable of speeds of up to Mach 4. This would create a considerably more lethal missile than the U.S.-made
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.

Concept art of a tailless version of the F-3 fighter.
It's important to remember that X-2 is only a technology demonstrator and not representative of what the final fighter, which observers have dubbed F-3, will look like. At least two concept drawings of the F-3 have emerged, one similar to the F-22 Raptor and another with a tailless design similar to
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.

One major factor in the future of the F-3 design is the engine. The X-2 is a relatively small aircraft because the engines produce a relatively small amount of thrust (its two engines produce 5 tons of thrust each, for 10 tons in total—by comparison, the F35's single engine produces 20 tons of thrust.) Japan is preparing to start work on a
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, which should lead to a new high performance engine for the F-3. The size of the aircraft will likely be a function of how much thrust Ishikawa thinks it can get from the engine.

In addition to the technologies showcased in Shinshin, Japan's Technical Research and Development Institute (TRDI) is researching technologies including infrared stealth, fiber optics, self-repairing flight control technologies, and and building air-to-air radar into the actual skin of the aircraft itself (similar to
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. TRDI is also looking into battlefield data networking, including using unmanned aerial vehicles to provide targeting information to networked F-3 fighters.

Despite Japan's technological expertise, developing a new fighter will not be a walk in the park. Aircraft avionics—the electronics systems that integrate everything from the engines to flight controls to the process of launching a missile—have grown unbelievably complex, bound together with computers and software that require millions of lines of code. The F-35 fighter, under development for nearly two decades, is still facing enduring
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that won't be resolved for several years more. How Japan intends to get around this problem and others like them remains to be seen.

Japan plans to fly the X-2 for two years and make a decision on going forward with an actual fighter design around 2018. Assuming no major headaches, the F-3 fighter is expected to enter service in the mid-2030s—when Japan's F-15J Eagle fleet will be 50 years old.

Japan's quest to build its own fighter will be long and arduous—and will likely require American or European assistance. But without a top-tier air superiority fighter available, Japan has no choice but to press on.

Here's a video of the unveiling ceremony:


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antiterror13

Brigadier
@b787 ... where it says 6th gen? it says it will evolve to 6th gen ... all eventually will evolve to 6th or 7th gen anyway

and also mid 2030s ... big diff then 2030 as you said ... and its a plan (for 5th gen, not 6th gen) ... and will get delayed easily .. anything could happen from now to mid 2030s
 

Zool

Junior Member
whSqCpx.jpg
this is the basic idea F-3, it is said to be a 6th generation

To start I would ask if this graphic is from an official source like Mitsubishi or the JSDF and if so, could you please provide the link? As it stands, and especially because I do not read Japanese, this image as response to my last message really tells me nothing. It could be fan art for all I know, and it bears zero resemblance to the actual Japanese X-2.

Edit - I see you posted a Popular Mechanics article in reply to antiterror13 and I'm guessing this is where you got the CG? That article is pretty shaky ground to claim X-2 will be developed into a 6th Gen Fighter, if that is all you are going on. I know when it comes to the T-50 program you only seem to trust industry information releases and argue against forum speculation...

Anyway a few key points I would make on this fan art and the article:

1) The airframe in the graphic, from what I can see in each area of the design (beyond the fact it is tailless), has zero commonality with the actual X-2 Demo Plane. If this graphic, or something close to it, was the end goal for X-2 made operational after further refinement, it would have at least some design features in common with the current build X-2 for the simple reason of applicable research insight during testing. I would say testing the X-2 airframe as it is now would reveal little to no aerodynamic or rcs information that would be applicable to the design in that graphic. That's my reasoning for calling that picture evidence of X-2's development path into a 6th Gen Fighter, nonsense.

2) The article starts out with the words:
Meant to showcase a variety of new tech, the X-2 stealth aircraft will almost certainly lead to a sixth-generation fighter aircraft designed to counter the new breed of advanced Chinese fighters.
That is a pretty vague statement that is not backed up by anything official from anyone related to the program. No quotes. It's completely ad lib by the author.

3) The rest of the article references X-2 capabilities already present in existing American 5th Gen Aircraft and includes only a single sentence about tailless design concept art, with no mention where that graphic came from and no official source quotes about its actual relation to the real world program.

I guess I would summarize by suggesting, if you are going to make a major statement like you did that X-2 is planned to become a 6th Generation Fighter to debut in 2030, you should really back that up with something official and not just post a graphic in one reply and then a fun little Pop Mechanics article (that contains no official source information) in another. It's the exact opposite of what you preach about the PAK-FA and it is giving is potentially - likely - false information.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
To start I would ask if this graphic is from an official source like Mitsubishi or the JSDF and if so, could you please provide the link? As it stands, and especially because I do not read Japanese, this image as response to my last message really tells me nothing. It could be fan art for all I know, and it bears zero resemblance to the actual Japanese X-2.

Here.

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It was announced in 2010.
 
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