Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

The issues between China and Japan are not about ideology and world domination as they were between the US and the USSR. China and Japan's issues are about territory and historical grievances. Proxy wars don't apply.

sure it does PA. While I understand your point I believe that proxy wars are subconciously fought between two or more entities to 'let off steam' so to speak which in turn lessen the chance of a full blown explosion between the two main entities. In a way this is a good thing. Kinda choosing the lesser of two evil if you will w/o even realizing it.

The reasoning behind two countries not liking each other be it territorial, ideology or because one person insult other party's momma is moot.
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

sure it does PA. While I understand your point I believe that proxy wars are subconciously fought between two or more entities to 'let off steam' so to speak which in turn lessen the chance of a full blown explosion between the two main entities. In a way this is a good thing. Kinda choosing the lesser of two evil if you will w/o even realizing it.

The reasoning behind two countries not liking each other be it territorial, ideology or because one person insult other party's momma is moot.
The real reason for no proxy war is because neither country care enough to dispatch to a third country and fight. (No Vietnam or Afghanistan here) Though the only proxy wars are internet fantasies as the this thread as well as blog post here:

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Looks like our Japanese friend is itching for a shooting war.
 

icbeodragon

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Senkaku/Diaoyu islands: Japan may release China radar data

Japan says it may release evidence to prove a Chinese naval frigate locked its fire-control radar onto a Japanese ship near disputed islands.

Tokyo said it might release the data after Beijing rejected accusations it had targeted the destroyer last month.

China insists its ship was only using ordinary surveillance radar.

The incident would be the closest the two countries have come to exchanging fire in the reignited dispute over the islands in the East China Sea.

The two nations are embroiled in a bitter territorial row over the islands, known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. Japan controls the islands, which are also claimed by Taiwan.

"The government is considering the extent of what can be disclosed," Kyodo news agency quoted Japanese Defence Minister Itsunori Onodera as saying.

On Friday, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe called on Beijing to acknowledge the 30 January incident and apologise.

Earlier this week, Mr Onodera said a Japanese military helicopter was also targeted with a similar type of radar by another Chinese frigate on 19 January.

But China's Defence Ministry has denied the Japanese allegations saying they "were against the facts" and urging Japan to "stop stirring up tension in the East China Sea".

The Chinese Defence Ministry, in its statement, said that in each incident, the Chinese vessel "kept normal observation and alert, and fire control radar was not used".

"China hopes that Japan take effective measures to stop stirring up tension in the East China Sea and making irresponsible remarks," it said.

Since the row over the islands flared up again last September, Chinese vessels have been sailing in and out of what Japan says are its territorial waters around the islands, prompting warnings from Tokyo.
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ahadicow

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I admit guilty of "foundationlessness" if that's a understandable word. I really do not have any reason or evidance to support a assertion that a clash between China and western powers are inevitable.

But the question I want to raise is that when are wars reasonable? What sense does systematic mass-murder really make? what purpose do they serve? If you have never lived in this world and is given a-priori knowlege about physical laws and human morality, would you predict something like wars been going on throughout our history? Had wars been really understood by anthropologist? economist? historians? how about psychologist?

War is a mystery. You cannot predict it on a rational basis and I'm not trying to do it.

But doing the opposite is equally unfeasible. I mean predicting peace and inventing unreal reasons for it. There is a recent book which I forgot the title and the author that claims we are living in the most peaceful time in human histroy by ploting the death rate of humans from all violent causes over our histroy. The author concluded that humans are stepping away from violence. That war would be one day be seen as a growing pain of civilization in its infancy, a black dot on human history.

The way I think is that humans are violent by nature. Humans in natural states were killing each other all the time. We don't need a good reason for war, what we need is a good reason for peace and that reason had better be very damn good.

I think the reason that we had peace(largely) is beacuse a very powerful nation (U.S.) and a coalition (NATO) had eastablished a world order that no one outside of them had any real chance to usurp. This equilibrum of intersted and power had arrested the world in an forced armstice that except a few outcast(N.Korea/Iran/Cuba etc), everybody fell in line. It's akin a school or a gang or a society of monkeys really. Once a powerful chief took place, there is an apparence of peace.

But behind this peaceful apparence there is a reality so complex that on one can really understand. In this reality, you would find resentment, envy, ego, perversion, self-uncertainty, vengeance, mob-identity, fantacy, zeal etc. that all rolls into a murderous mass that we call madness. Rationality is simple. Madness is complex. We don't understand madness at all and like to pretend it doesn't exist.

We assume the current order we see is the result of reasonality. What if the reverse is true? that we are only willing to be resonable when there is a clear sense of order. And when that order erode, when it is less certain who is in charge and who will be in charge, we decend into this complex partern of behavior that is madness and all hell break loose.

That's what I see in the ongoing dispute on Diaoyu and SCS. Those disputes were not created yesteryear or the year before that or the year before that. They were created a looooong time ago but they never came to boil. They were the undercurrent beneath the apparence of peace created by a powerful order. Why do they surface now? Had China suddenly become ambitious? China had alway been ambitious. Had Japan suddenly grew tired of its mantra of "peace"? Japan was never about peace. The only difference is that right now, noone bother to hide themsalves anymore, it all comes to the open. This is a sign. A sign that China read and Japan read and rest of school read as well. This sign says: the headmaster is leaving.
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Agreed, I think people underestimate the degree of China-Russia cooperation.
Indeed this cooperation will only grow stronger given how much the US has tried to manipulate things in Syria, Libya et al in its favor at the expense of Russia, and also the fact that the Russians know that if the Japanese get their way over the Diaoyu islands with US help the same can also occur with the Kuriles too. That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see Russian intervention as a counter to US intervention for Japan in this situation.
 

icbeodragon

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Indeed this cooperation will only grow stronger given how much the US has tried to manipulate things in Syria, Libya et al in its favor at the expense of Russia, and also the fact that the Russians know that if the Japanese get their way over the Diaoyu islands with US help the same can also occur with the Kuriles too. That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see Russian intervention as a counter to US intervention for Japan in this situation.
I don't think Russia would go to pre-emptive war with Japan (and by extension the US) on such a remote possibility. Russia holds the cards on the Kuril islands pretty much. Japan would have to play the part of China when it comes to enforcing its claims.
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Japan didn't identify the Chinese frigate by name or number despite the fact that Japan says she was at a distance of 3 km. Was the Japanese destroyer unable to identify her? WHY????
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Japan didn't identify the Chinese frigate by name or number despite the fact that Japan says she was at a distance of 3 km. Was the Japanese destroyer unable to identify her? WHY????
Because that would mean Japanese ships were guilty of intruding into Chinese territory. And there goes their trump card for your Daiyou islands.
 

montyp165

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I don't think Russia would go to pre-emptive war with Japan (and by extension the US) on such a remote possibility. Russia holds the cards on the Kuril islands pretty much. Japan would have to play the part of China when it comes to enforcing its claims.
I wouldn't consider it quite so remote given how much more aggressive the Japanese are willing to act with US backing than without, and the Georgian example is still instructive on Russian military options for action.
 

asif iqbal

Brigadier
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I wouldn't consider it quite so remote given how much more aggressive the Japanese are willing to act with US backing than without, and the Georgian example is still instructive on Russian military options for action.
Well let's be honest the Russian attack on Georgia was hardly a balanced war, had the Russians gone in against a better foe it would have been a repeat of the Chechneya

Thier landing ships were slow and very vunerable, but Georgian didn't even bother to attack them, instead they ran off!!
 
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