Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar


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vesicles

Colonel
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Then maybe the CCP shouldn't have fostered nationalism in Chinese schools so much? But you can't pander to the angry masses all the time, otherwise the world would constantly be at war until there was just a few people left alive, living like animals.
Please give me an example of any nation on this planet that does not foster nationalism. Here in the States, we sing National anthem in school every Monday and before every sizable sports events. I don't think Chinese are doing anything close to that.


China has effectively put its reputation on the line by getting angry over the Senkaku Islands in the last year and creating a mini-crisis. Beforehand, I can promise you hardly anyone outside of China and Japan knew about this issue. Now that China's jumping up and down and screaming, people are talking about it. So China has drawn attention to an issue and limited its own options, when previously it had the option of just making a diplomatic protest.
The last time China sent its military abroad was early 1980's and the last time China used a military to threaten someone was 1996. China has not used its military in any means for nearly 20 years. And it seems that all it's been doing is making diplomatic protests. So China has been exercising its option of "making diplomatic protects" to the extent that people think that is the only thing China CAN do. So I don't think it is an option anymore.

So the rest of the world will end up fearing, rather than respecting, China. Is that what you really want? Countries that fear others will only do what you want while they have to. As soon as they don't have to, they won't give you time of day - or quite possibly return the favour by hitting you when you're down. Are Norway or Sweden powerful countries? No. But they're respected and have happy, affluent populations. Also if there was some catastrophic disaster there, all their neighbours would help without question. Is China never going to need help from others in the future when it's down on its luck?
I have said this a while back and I will say it here again. Respect is won with a combination of stick AND carrots, not by either one of them alone The more carrots you give to people, the more people feel that the only thing you have is carrot. And they will want more carrots, and more carrots, and even more carrots. If you decide enough is enough and you don't want to give your hard-earned carrots away any more, they will come and take the carrots away from you. Wasn't that what happened to China between 1840 and 1940? China didn't want to have anything to do with anyone else on the planet. It was obsessed with living its own live and didn't want to bother others and didn't want to be bothered. And look what that got them. When the Western powers came and knock on their door, they decided to give them what they wanted, treasures, gold, silver, etc. And look what that got them. Taking treasures was not enough any more, and the West wanted China all together. They literally moved in. That's what "respect" got them.

The key is to show people you are fully capable of hurting them any time you want, but CHOOSE to be be friends with them. YOu give them the carrots because you want to, not because you have to and you have nothing else to give. That is how you WON respect. We constantly hear athletes talking about winning respect from your opponents. The only way to do that is to beat your opponents and demonstrate to them that you are a winner. International politics is the same. No one will truly respect a weak, or at least unproven nation. People only respect winners. How is how you win respect.

Plus, there is no forever friends, only forever interests. No matter how you form alliances, if there is a conflict, alliance will dissolve. So they may come and help you with natural disasters. But if helping you hurt their core national interests, they will not come and help no matter how close an ally they can be.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Please give me an example of any nation on this planet that does not foster nationalism.
I said "so much". And there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism. There's nothing wrong with feeling proud of your country, but it's your own fault if you raise future generations in such a way that you feel you have to fight a war over some uninhabited islands for fear of facing mass social action.

So China has been exercising its option of "making diplomatic protects" to the extent that people think that is the only thing China CAN do.
That's not what I was talking about. MwRYum was suggesting that China has to use force because otherwise the world would think it was weak. I pointed out that the world didn't think there was an issue over these islands until China started drawing attention to it by getting angry.

Respect is won with a combination of stick AND carrots, not by either one of them alone
What sticks have Norway or Sweden used in living memory?

Wasn't that what happened to China between 1840 and 1940? China didn't want to have anything to do with anyone else on the planet. It was obsessed with living its own live and didn't want to bother others and didn't want to be bothered. And look what that got them.
Comparing the China of today with the imperial regime is ridiculous. China could resist any attempt of invasion with its conventional forces, not to mention the fact that it has nuclear weapons. It is also a global player through trade, unlike the isolated imperial regime.

The key is to show people you are fully capable of hurting them any time you want, but CHOOSE to be be friends with them.
How many friends did you make at school by beating up/threatening people?

We constantly hear athletes talking about winning respect from your opponents. The only way to do that is to beat your opponents and demonstrate to them that you are a winner.
They're athletes, not gladiators who fight to the death! Have you considered that trade, cultural relations and diplomacy are a far better way of earning respect?

Plus, there is no forever friends
There's no forever anything, which takes me back to my point about what China would do if or when one day it won't be able to throw its weight around.
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

It would be a "perfect" solution on America's debt problem. They could say China has defaulted on it's UST bills due to military action at the stroke of the POTUS's pen. Then its anyone's guess on the outcome.
I don't think you understood the debt market. The debt can be transferred in the secondary market, the US actually doesn't know what bond and how much bond are held by China everyday. Because it changes everyday. However, the biggest impact is if China does not show to UST auctions, thus decrease bond prices and increase interest rates. Nearly half of USTs are actually short term coupon bonds (I'll you $100 back in 6 month, how much you'll willing to pay for the I.O.U) This means US needs China to show up to the auction every time unless the Treasury starts to issue less bonds (which would mean a fiscal surplus).

At which stage is US not involved?
Let's that this scenario, right now Japanese P-3Cs are dropping sonar buoys near Diaoyu island which China considers as its own. A CMS ship is sent to clear/collect the said sonar buoys, then CMS ships was sunk by Japanese warplanes, then in turn got shotdown by intercepting Chinese warplanes. Shooting war starts. What happens next? USS Ohio start throwing tomahawks at Beijing? All kinds of ballistic missiles start to land on Japanese and US bases? Global Nuclear War? Or each side pretended nothing happened and carry on?

The Problems is Diaoyu island itself is not defendable position, and both side have the strategic depth to carried the war almost indefinitely. Works of fiction always portrays when enough damage to done to the other side, then their government somehow magically collapses. However, that's not what happens in real life. Didn't happen to the UK in 1940, US in in 1941, and USSR in 1941/42.
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Given that China only holds 7.5% of America's debt, I don't see how a war with China would solve the issue on any level.



The Falklands don't face any credible military threat from Argentina, so there's little need for American support, even if Obama's "have your cake and eat it" position is tiresome.

Whereas there is a significant chance of a military conflict between China and Japan over the islands. If the US didn't back Japan if fighting broke out, all its military agreements with countries around the world would be exposed to be worthless. At a stroke the US' military position in the world would be severely damaged because no one would bother helping it.



Then maybe the CCP shouldn't have fostered nationalism in Chinese schools so much? But you can't pander to the angry masses all the time, otherwise the world would constantly be at war until there was just a few people left alive, living like animals.



China has effectively put its reputation on the line by getting angry over the Senkaku Islands in the last year and creating a mini-crisis. Beforehand, I can promise you hardly anyone outside of China and Japan knew about this issue. Now that China's jumping up and down and screaming, people are talking about it. So China has drawn attention to an issue and limited its own options, when previously it had the option of just making a diplomatic protest.



So the rest of the world will end up fearing, rather than respecting, China. Is that what you really want? Countries that fear others will only do what you want while they have to. As soon as they don't have to, they won't give you time of day - or quite possibly return the favour by hitting you when you're down. Are Norway or Sweden powerful countries? No. But they're respected and have happy, affluent populations. Also if there was some catastrophic disaster there, all their neighbours would help without question. Is China never going to need help from others in the future when it's down on its luck?
Whether they want to admit it or not, most Westerners have very little respect for China because they've been brainwashed to think in one single perspective and that their values were the right ones ever since the day they were born. Communists are evil remember!

Many Chinese-born posters here have lived both in the West and East and will tell you that hoping for genuine respect from the Western world is absolutely hopeless unless we turn into a pro-American puppet. For every positive news on China, they must dramatize and report 100 negative ones right away. It's that simple.

Therefore, you only made yourself look like some propaganda minister with your statement above. ;)
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Thread Closed..and you all know why.

bd popeye super moderator
 
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