Skywatcher
Captain
[Cuts through the snowflake whining] There's nothing really special about Japan trying to export submarine/submarine technology in the past several years (i.e. Australia). Tokyo's tried to export it a lot, but it hasn't taken off (most customers aren't interested in long range ocean going SSKs, and unlike France or Germany, Japan does not have a proven track record of arms exports, much less post delivery support to foreign customers)
Fixed it for you.
When the Australian Prime Minister was Abbot, it seemed like a for sure deal. However Australian politics changed with their next Prime Minster and to then came new Australian requirements for build in Australia for Australian jobs. With that, the Japanese were hesitant because they wanted to build in Japan and sell as a whole product because that would better safe guard Soryu sub technology. However the French and German bids were more willing and upfront to satisfy those new Australian requirements. The Japanese would later start to offer build in Australia schemes but it lost out the French. France has some Pacific island possessions near Australia and so due to that, the Australian-French cooperation was quite strong already. There was also a little pressure from the PRC to Australia to not buy Japanese submarines. Prime Minister Abe pushed for the sub bid quite hard but upon its failure to win the bid, some Japanese defense thinkers were a bit relieved to actually have lost because the build in Australia requirement risked Soryu sub tech leaks. The year was 2016 and Australia wasn't quite as willing to speak vocal opposition to the PRC as it is willing these days.
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SamuraiBlue
Captain
No, first off the Japanese was willing but reluctant since the benefit/lose trade off was tipping towards the loss side. Japan was also skeptical if Australians were able to adopt the steel welding process knowing they would cut holes into the hull for adaptations afterwards not accepting the consequence compromise the integrity of the hull.
The life span of ANY sub is it's hull integrity. Once compromised, the maximum submerged depth is compromised as well.
Good point.
From what I understood the main issues with the Soryu sale to Australia was price and not enough construction in Australian shipyards.
But I think to a large degree it was also anti-Japanese sentiment. The Australians still have bitter memories about the Japanese from WW2.
I think it was the best choice for them though, the contract with the French makes no sense. It is going to be basically an all new design and it is going to take forever if it even gets built. Only recently did the French finish building the first nuclear attack submarine of the Barracuda class and I doubt the conversion to conventional is going to be trivial...
The problem with Japanese military sales is, basically, everything they make is too expensive, the documentation and everything is in Japanese, they have no experience of foreign after market support, and their laws which are even worse than Germany's with regards to exports. I mean they don't sell weapons to countries at war, wtf, who would want to deal with someone like that? To have weapons you can't use? I have heard about rumors of sales of the Kawasaki C-2 though.
But I think to a large degree it was also anti-Japanese sentiment. The Australians still have bitter memories about the Japanese from WW2.
I think it was the best choice for them though, the contract with the French makes no sense. It is going to be basically an all new design and it is going to take forever if it even gets built. Only recently did the French finish building the first nuclear attack submarine of the Barracuda class and I doubt the conversion to conventional is going to be trivial...
The problem with Japanese military sales is, basically, everything they make is too expensive, the documentation and everything is in Japanese, they have no experience of foreign after market support, and their laws which are even worse than Germany's with regards to exports. I mean they don't sell weapons to countries at war, wtf, who would want to deal with someone like that? To have weapons you can't use? I have heard about rumors of sales of the Kawasaki C-2 though.
Mr T
Senior Member
That's complete nonsense. People born in 1945 (i.e. too young to remember the war) are 75 this year. The vast majority of Australians never experienced conflict with Japan, and even though they're aware of it like most countries it's seen as a historical issue. There is no noticeable anti-Japanese sentiment in Australia, certainly not enough to derail a defence contract.
The Soryu deal fell through primarily because Abbott left office and had been very pro-Japanese, seeing it as an opportunity to strengthen Australia-Japan ties. His successor wanted an all-Australia build to bolster his chances at the elections.
You are terribly uninformed. "Technical assistant" in what? What make you think that this little bit of scrap bones thrown to the Taiwanese can help them gain formal independence? Japanese are powerless to stop the PLA, if the PRC is provoked by DPP goons into abandoning peaceful reunification methods and resort to war. If being on this forum is not enough to make you realize that Japan does NOT matter much in this matter, you'd be deliberately choosing to be blind.
And given you usually and empty rhetoric, I would expect no real meaningful discussion of any kind from you. This is a forum about military matters. Post a picture of a weapon, discuss a platform, instead of throwing empty rhetoric around.
That‘s up to you to decide. You slapped a "pro-CCP" sticker on me without even know how I think, do you expect me to let you off the hook this easily?