J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
For a while I participated in a quite large Argentine defence forum for the purpose of practicing Spanish mainly, as other Spanish-speaking countries/forums are unpopular and with much fewer updates. As we’re all aware that Argentina is facing intense disputes with the UK on Malvina(Falklands) and Argentina’s mil aviation is still in the age of 1980s with old 3-gen Mirages and needs urgent updates… Politics aside, purely from military fans’ point of view it’s quite logical to anticipate Argentina considering Chinese planes and other Chinese mil gears due to their fear of being sold out by the Western vendors in times of need. It’s quite a revelation though to see what they think.

You just can’t believe it what I found out: out of every 10 active members, I’d say 2 had a slightly fair view on Chinese gears, 4 no clue whatsoever, and the rest 4 mostly being main contributers/mods themselves, had nothing but absolutely despise towards anything that is made in China out of kind of hatred. Made-in-China represents nothing, absolutely nothing more than a cheap clone of either Russian or Israel. It’s very hard to have ANY positive comment on J-20, and for that matter J-10s , J-11B, JF-17, etc., “all are shoddy copies of Lavi or Russian planes anyway”.

Being a quite popular member -- due to being the most hated one, if you really want to know. Yeeks?! -- in my short stay there, I frequently caused huge uproars even by charmingly mentioning my observations for instance that J-11B is different from and better than Su-27 block I, or Chinese aviation industry is catching up , or Chinese electronics industry as a whole perhaps has already overtaken Russia’s as reflected by the facts that J-20’s avionics are developed in China by the Chinese while those of Su-35, Russia’s best, are outsourced from Korea…the negative reactions were so overwhelming that I finally gave up arguing with them. It seems that it’s much easier for many of them to *honestly* comprehend the story that the Frenchmen, the true genius behind Rafale – a quasi 5th gen in their view, have built a permanent manned station on Mars than idea that the Chinese might have been overtaking the Russians in electronics… needless to say my Spanish was quite good now and I quitted that forum.

So the universal law that “anything made-in-China (including Huawei) =cheap & shoddy copy” is not only monopolised by some of the US and Europe, but by many other places as well. Some people genuinely believe so as in my Argentine case. How to rationalise it? A combined feeling of arrogance, fear/insecure (due to unknown) and a little bit envy, on top of some ignorance, perhaps?
In Latin american Brazil is the nation with the most of interest in trading and exchanging technology with China, well Brazil is a pretty large economy, Brazil has been the architect of the current south american political thinking, for Brazilian politicians China is a partner as long as technology is shared and China buys raw materials, but there is a big difference between Brazil and Mexico, Mexico competes with China for the same products, cars, electronic goods etc etc... while China buys Brazilian raw materials and share high tech like aerospace products.

Your view of argentina and latin america is not well developed, Argentina was one of the first nations to put a monkey into space with their own technology, yeah probably few know that, argentina built one of the first jet fighters in the world in the 1950s

[video=youtube;8eZ0lKsfkCk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eZ0lKsfkCk&feature=relmfu[/video]

The mono Juan (John the monkey) was one of the first animals to be put into space, argentina has its own technology, however Argentina is barely a 40 million people nation and today is a partner of Brazil, so Argentinians are very proud about the technical feats, in fact in satellites and nuclear reactors argentina is world leader.

But as a small nation they can not spend billions of dollars in military hardware, so today they buy Chinese technology, that basicly is based upon tech transfers.

But they might buy in the future chinese hardware but J-20 i doubt it
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
In latin america up to what i know there are different views about chinese technology, in nations like Mexico, due to the economic competition between Mexico and China for the US market there is the view in Mexico that Chinese cheap goods are a direct economic threat to the mexican economy and a powerful competitor for direct investment.
The mexican government is far right, so it`s utterly aligned to the US sphere of influence. So Chinese military imports are basicly null, no chances for J-10s, JF-17 and much less J-20 and one of the main reasons is in Mexico there are many US aerospace companies that export to the US from helicopter and aircraft fuselages to jet engine parts, so a Chinese military jet in mexican hands is a thing China won`t risk .
However there is some economic partnership for civil goods such as bikes an cars between mexican and chinese companies, so only in the area of civil aircraft China and Mexico could work in the future.
.

The Rest of Latin america has different views.

Argentina has interest to export food and raw materials to China and like Brazil, has a well developed economy and technology, since the year 2000 Brazil lead Mercosur has the agenda of become an independent economic power in a multipolar world.

Argentina has a well developed aerospace industry, they are able to develop helicopters and build jet trainers, they can design rockets and satellites, so Argentina like brazil can and do co-operate in joint programs with China, why? simple China like Russia can share some technologies that they want to absorb.

It is possible that Brazil and argentina could buy some Chinese military hardware but more on the tech transfer basis, argentina today builds helicopters, in fact the the most advanced domestic helicopter industry in latin america is in Argentina, in Mexico we build helicopters too, but they are Bell and Mc Donnal helicopters so they are american designs and are build only in Mexico privately, it means they are build by these companies and just the labour is mexican.

Brazil also builds Helicopters, in fact they build the same Helicopter that China builds and calls Z-11, the Eurocopter Squirrel.







However Brazil builds it like a foreign owned company, so the helicopter also belongs to Eurocopter

Well player, thats a cute little chopper, one of the local Dr.s in Jacksonville had a Hughes 500 that he flew back and forth from Springfield to Jacksonville 15 or 20 years ago, it was cooool.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Let me be short... Back two decades ago I got now and then a copy of Janes... That was real data. These days the press has been rewriting what some big shots (US based firms) write. It started with the Gulf wars... Now these days they have not even a clue what they write. I mean, even a person that now and then reads these kind of aviation forums knows a lot more then these experts in some nations. Todays the western and Pakistani press wrote to fighterjets crashed and Pakistan has been plagued by Chinese planes that crash. Everyone with some knowledge would know that these two prop planes that crashed today are Mushaq basic trainers and these are kind of Saab Safari (Swedish) improvements. There is nothing Chinese in them. Neither do they know that PAF has superb safety record and this is a unlucky year sofar. So, I am not surprised about the politically motivated crap about Chine not being able to do anything to now making J20 a long range stealthy bomber... Shocked?

True, but how the heck does these so called "experts" get such a sweet writing position to display their non-expertise point of view?
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Until now I have always taken it for granted that the J-20 (as well J-10) was designed and assembled within that CAC facility. Have I missed something all these years?

No, your not missing anything, I am certain someone would have noticed if it had been trucked in, I don't really think anyone is surprised by the second prototype. No the fairy godmother of fighters did not wave her magic wand and a J-20 appeared. All airplanes have a "roll out" they usually fly them at the factory field. They flew 2001 to her new home, as to six or seven in the desert, fanboy speculation, kind of like air force brat dreaming somebody will be smart enough to reopen Raptor line, "not likely, but they should". So, two J-20s, a fairly ambitious flight test regime, lots of hours on 2001, confident enough to take it on a cross country. Having said that, most likely few on this or any military forum have no idea the amount of time or money bringing a true fifth gen to production involves, but you will. Unlike the past, it is advantageous for PLAAF to sell their airplane to the Chinese people, this one is going to be expensive, hence the western style "marketing campaign", people are going to have to be sold on it, to be willing to make sacrifices to see this project through. It will take lots of time and engineering, and there will be design challenges! So don't take the criticism too seriously, there will be plenty of that to go around as well, just like the good ole USA.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

True, but how the heck does these so called "experts" get such a sweet writing position to display their non-expertise point of view?

Lots of us are asking that same question about our own "fearless leader"? His military prowess is on the same level as his economic acumen. Reminds me of a certain "brain surgeon I know, who was flying with another expert aviator, we replaced' the main landing gear and at least one lower wing on his "chisten eagle", because each of them supposed the other was going to land the plane?
 

peperez

New Member
Brazil and Argentina are cooperating in some projects like the Embraer KC-390 and the Gaucho airborne forces vehicle. There's a lot of proposition on the table, like an Argentinian participation in a new antiship missile currently in development by the Brazilian Navy. Argentina, also, is very interested in the Guarani armored troop carrier. There are conversations, also, in spatial cooperation. Unhappily, China see Latin American only as client not as a potential partner for new military equipment. At the moment, Brazilian Defence Ministry study some Chinese propositions evolving ToT, but not joint ventures.

Cheers

Pepe

---------- Post added at 01:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 AM ----------

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Munir

Banned Idiot
True, but how the heck does these so called "experts" get such a sweet writing position to display their non-expertise point of view?

Goebbels perfected the mass manipulation. The western politicians just uses the same style to influence the masses. You do remember WMD in Irac? I mean even Powell made a grand display in the UN headquarters... So, these experts are just part of the system and otherwise they are dumped. You do remember Irac and the "embedded" journalists? How come none of these ever wrote about the real war? Because they were not allowed to. And to be even more direct... If you ask the president of the USA wrong questions during his press conference you never get a chance to be there again... You gotta love the principles of democracy. Now China is portrayed as the bad guy...
 

Player99

Junior Member
I'm not sure about that, but I would think designing, manufacturing and testing cannot happen in the same location. Moreover, 2001 has gone to another site. Anyone know how they transported the plane to that location?
BTW, where is this second location (Yan....) located?

It, of course, flew there on its own. Many people saw it flew away that day and never came back landing...
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Brazil and Argentina are cooperating in some projects like the Embraer KC-390 and the Gaucho airborne forces vehicle. There's a lot of proposition on the table, like an Argentinian participation in a new antiship missile currently in development by the Brazilian Navy. Argentina, also, is very interested in the Guarani armored troop carrier. There are conversations, also, in spatial cooperation. Unhappily, China see Latin American only as client not as a potential partner for new military equipment. At the moment, Brazilian Defence Ministry study some Chinese propositions evolving ToT, but not joint ventures.

Cheers

Pepe

---------- Post added at 01:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 AM ----------

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i think the question is what policies we have in latin america and what priorities, in Brazil you have a very low profile for weapons adquisitions, in Mexico we do not want advanced fighter aircraft.

If Argentina and Brazil really wanted you could easily develop a fighter aircraft, but the priorities are different to the Chinese.

It is very probable that if Mexico, Brazil and Argentina pool their efforts we could build a jet fighter in the class of the Mirage 2000 or F-16, in South America you can build E-190 which is pretty much a superjet 100 class aircraft, you have AMX and Argentina can build helicopters, in Mexico there is design of jet engines for ITP and GE, but the question is why?
[video=youtube;7S9dBY3pZXo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S9dBY3pZXo[/video]
building bombardier aircraft in Mexico

[video=youtube;S5fqo-96GSA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5fqo-96GSA&feature=related[/video]


The J-20 is a project that spends lot of money, while the E-190 is a program that makes money, i mean our priorities are different, the Chinese need the J-20 because they want to play the card of superpower and their economy grows at 8% a year.

In dollars our economies growt per capita at the same rate of China, at least in Mexico, with a 15000 dollars a year per capita GDP at a rate of 4% we increase the per capita as China in per capita GDP but our goverment wants civil aircraft and just to be suppliers of aerospace products, Brazil wants to be in good relations with the US, so if you would join the Chinese in J-10 or J-20 you would get al kind of political pressure from the EU and the USA and Embraer would lose some suppliers in the US, Europe and Japan.

In Latin America only Brazil wants some degree of domestic self defence, in Mexico we do not need air force, with the USAF and US navy patrolling the waters and skies of north america no power can get near Mexico, and with some hispanics in the USAF and armed forces we get some degree of defence without really spending money.

So J-20 is not going to be sold in latin america even T-50, Brazil will get either Rafales or F-18Es and Mexico perhaps in few years a few F-16s or F-18s.

Argentina won`t buy in my opinion chinese fighters, it will be economic suicide, Europe and the US will react with all kinds of pressures to stop the deal, in my opinion is possible Argentina could buy JF-17s, but i am of the opinion most likely they will buy Russian, but if Argentina wants jets they will buy second hand F-16s from a European nation.

J-20 is an offensive weapon, too expensive and too risky, it will only spend money and won`t get us many friends in the west, so in my opinion Brazil won`t join China for a steath program.

Venezuela could buy T-50 but they are already in bad relations with the west, Brazil has more pragmatic policies
 
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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
@ MiG-29 & peperez !!!

Would You plese STOP ... no more postings on Latin-America, no helicopters, ... :(


Deino
 
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