J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Player99 said:

Until now I have always taken it for granted that the J-20 (as well J-10) was designed and assembled within that CAC facility. Have I missed something all these years?

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I'm not sure about that, but I would think designing, manufacturing and testing cannot happen in the same location. Moreover, 2001 has gone to another site. Anyone know how they transported the plane to that location?

BTW, where is this second location (Yan....) located?

Let me be short... Back two decades ago I got now and then a copy of Janes... That was real data. These days the press has been rewriting what some big shots (US based firms) write. It started with the Gulf wars... Now these days they have not even a clue what they write. I mean, even a person that now and then reads these kind of aviation forums knows a lot more then these experts in some nations. Todays the western and Pakistani press wrote to fighterjets crashed and Pakistan has been plagued by Chinese planes that crash. Everyone with some knowledge would know that these two prop planes that crashed today are Mushaq basic trainers and these are kind of Saab Safari (Swedish) improvements. There is nothing Chinese in them. Neither do they know that PAF has superb safety record and this is a unlucky year sofar. So, I am not surprised about the politically motivated crap about Chine not being able to do anything to now making J20 a long range stealthy bomber... Shocked?

Well they're all just a bunch of lemmings. Ever since the story came out of Chinese counterfeit parts being used for American military hardware now every problem anyone has with the military hardware is because of Chinese counterfiet parts. Russians are blaming all of India's fighter crashes on Chinese counterfeit parts. This isn't new. The San Francisco Bay Bridge a few years ago was shut down because a crack appeared on a major support. People were blaming it on bad quality Chinese parts. The problem was it was a part that's been there since it was first built 75 years ago. You even hear the F-22 problem is being blamed on China. Not long now we're going to hear the problems with the F-22 and F-35 are going to be blamed on Chinese parts from someone in the Pentagon or Congress. Thing is if it were true, they would be all acts of war if it played out how they're portraying. Why aren't they attacking China?

When are they going to realize that their arrogance, ego, denial, and even racism is a threat to national security. They thought someone who was gay in a government position was a threat to national security. But somehow their need to feel nothing can be their own fault is paramount over national security and they still fear China catching up.

vesicles said:

I'm not sure about that, but I would think designing, manufacturing and testing cannot happen in the same location. Moreover, 2001 has gone to another site. Anyone know how they transported the plane to that location?

BTW, where is this second location (Yan....) located?

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Part of the requirements of this aircraft is a long range, so it can fly to any airfield within China without an intermediate landing. No need to load it on railway wagons.

Munir said:

Let me be short... Back two decades ago I got now and then a copy of Janes... That was real data. These days the press has been rewriting what some big shots (US based firms) write. It started with the Gulf wars... Now these days they have not even a clue what they write. I mean, even a person that now and then reads these kind of aviation forums knows a lot more then these experts in some nations. Todays the western and Pakistani press wrote to fighterjets crashed and Pakistan has been plagued by Chinese planes that crash. Everyone with some knowledge would know that these two prop planes that crashed today are Mushaq basic trainers and these are kind of Saab Safari (Swedish) improvements. There is nothing Chinese in them. Neither do they know that PAF has superb safety record and this is a unlucky year sofar. So, I am not surprised about the politically motivated crap about Chine not being able to do anything to now making J20 a long range stealthy bomber... Shocked?

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That is part of the propaganda to make your adversary look bad in order to gain a psychological advantage. It's not just something for the sake of egoistic need: there's much to be gain politically as well as economically to be seen as a country that's ahead in whatever field.

AssassinsMace said:

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David Axe is still attempting reverse psychology again.

I think it's irrelevant whether the J-20 was kept in secret or not. Performance of key components cannot be evaluated from the ground and from behind the fence in videos taken by civilians. The same paranoia over China today existed a hundred years ago. Nothing has changed.

I find it laughable they're in a stir that another J-20 has appeared. They're reading Chinese sites like this one and everyone has been anticipating more prototypes and they're still surprised? These guys are experts? The Raptor was around when they still thought the J-XX was a dream of Chinese fanboys. And now they want to somehow switch it around and say US stealth developments are a result of the J-20? They were going to happen anyway because look at how they think the J-20 is a technology demostrator just to show-off. How do they know how "the secretive" Chinese think? They don't. So how does someone figure out what the other side is thinking when you don't know or you're too arrogant to bother to know? You look at yourself and how you think.

Reading that Aviation Week blog it shows they were still in denial hoping that the J-20 was just a technology demonstrator. Now there's two they're alarmed and have to start building long range stealth bombers. Isn't that what the B-2 is for? Another stealth aircraft that was around when the J-XX was just a fanboy's fantasy. And of course let's not forget this is in part just to scare the American public into throwing more money in these programs.

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For a while I participated in a quite large Argentine defence forum for the purpose of practicing Spanish mainly, as other Spanish-speaking countries/forums are unpopular and with much fewer updates. As we’re all aware that Argentina is facing intense disputes with the UK on Malvina(Falklands) and Argentina’s mil aviation is still in the age of 1980s with old 3-gen Mirages and needs urgent updates… Politics aside, purely from military fans’ point of view it’s quite logical to anticipate Argentina considering Chinese planes and other Chinese mil gears due to their fear of being sold out by the Western vendors in times of need. It’s quite a revelation though to see what they think.

You just can’t believe it what I found out: out of every 10 active members, I’d say 2 had a slightly fair view on Chinese gears, 4 no clue whatsoever, and the rest 4 mostly being main contributers/mods themselves, had nothing but absolutely despise towards anything that is made in China out of kind of hatred. Made-in-China represents nothing, absolutely nothing more than a cheap clone of either Russian or Israel. It’s very hard to have ANY positive comment on J-20, and for that matter J-10s , J-11B, JF-17, etc., “all are shoddy copies of Lavi or Russian planes anyway”.

Being a quite popular member -- due to being the most hated one, if you really want to know. Yeeks?! -- in my short stay there, I frequently caused huge uproars even by charmingly mentioning my observations for instance that J-11B is different from and better than Su-27 block I, or Chinese aviation industry is catching up , or Chinese electronics industry as a whole perhaps has already overtaken Russia’s as reflected by the facts that J-20’s avionics are developed in China by the Chinese while those of Su-35, Russia’s best, are outsourced from Korea…the negative reactions were so overwhelming that I finally gave up arguing with them. It seems that it’s much easier for many of them to *honestly* comprehend the story that the Frenchmen, the true genius behind Rafale – a quasi 5th gen in their view, have built a permanent manned station on Mars than idea that the Chinese might have been overtaking the Russians in electronics… needless to say my Spanish was quite good now and I quitted that forum.

So the universal law that “anything made-in-China (including Huawei) =cheap & shoddy copy” is not only monopolised by some of the US and Europe, but by many other places as well. Some people genuinely believe so as in my Argentine case. How to rationalise it? A combined feeling of arrogance, fear/insecure (due to unknown) and a little bit envy, on top of some ignorance, perhaps?

Well that's the hurdle China faces the most... if the government cares. Everyone in the world is going to bash Chinese quality simply because they're the competition. I read in passing an article a while ago that the US and Europe were going to file a WTO claim against China and the C919 claiming it's subsidized. Since the only real customer of the C919 is going to be Chinese, because who's else is going to buy the plane with China's reputation, how can they claim it as something unfair when it's not in competition in the global market? Oh they don't want Chinese establishing their own domestic airline production and buying their own product. Sort of gives legitimacy to conspiracy theories of how the 100 mpg car engine has always been possible but that wouldn't serve the profits of oil companies so it has been held back from the public. We hear one notorious rival of China make absurd charges the J-20 is illegal because the Chinese military is not accountable to its citizens when it's just an attempt to stop it from being built. Like that is somehow going to be enforced? Why not claim the J-20 was subsidized too to force the end of the J-20?

Speeder said:

For a while I participated in a quite large Argentine defence forum for the purpose of practicing Spanish mainly, as other Spanish-speaking countries/forums are unpopular and with much fewer updates. As we’re all aware that Argentina is facing intense disputes with the UK on Malvina(Falklands) and Argentina’s mil aviation is still in the age of 1980s with old 3-gen Mirages and needs urgent updates… Politics aside, purely from military fans’ point of view it’s quite logical to anticipate Argentina considering Chinese planes and other Chinese mil gears due to their fear of being sold out by the Western vendors in times of need. It’s quite a revelation though to see what they think.

You just can’t believe it what I found out: out of every 10 active members, I’d say 2 had a slightly fair view on Chinese gears, 4 no clue whatsoever, and the rest 4 mostly being main contributers/mods themselves, had nothing but absolutely despise towards anything that is made in China out of kind of hatred. Made-in-China represents nothing, absolutely nothing more than a cheap clone of either Russian or Israel. It’s very hard to have ANY positive comment on J-20, and for that matter J-10s , J-11B, JF-17, etc., “all are shoddy copies of Lavi or Russian planes anyway”.

Being a quite popular member -- due to being the most hated one, if you really want to know. Yeeks?! -- in my short stay there, I frequently caused huge uproars even by charmingly mentioning my observations for instance that J-11B is different from and better than Su-27 block I, or Chinese aviation industry is catching up , or Chinese electronics industry as a whole perhaps has already overtaken Russia’s as reflected by the facts that J-20’s avionics are developed in China by the Chinese while those of Su-35, Russia’s best, are outsourced from Korea…the negative reactions were so overwhelming that I finally gave up arguing with them. It seems that it’s much easier for many of them to *honestly* comprehend the story that the Frenchmen, the true genius behind Rafale – a quasi 5th gen in their view, have built a permanent manned station on Mars than idea that the Chinese might have been overtaking the Russians in electronics… needless to say my Spanish was quite good now and I quitted that forum.

So the universal law that “anything made-in-China (including Huawei) =cheap & shoddy copy” is not only monopolised by some of the US and Europe, but by many other places as well. Some people genuinely believe so as in my Argentine case. How to rationalise it? A combined feeling of arrogance, fear/insecure (due to unknown) and a little bit envy, on top of some ignorance, perhaps?

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Those Argentina formers are mainly layman. Why do you care much of their opinion. Argentina armed force purchase of Z-11 and license produce is a first positive step. Definitely those on top has a much open mind. Of cos, budget is a big problem to them. I believe Chinese military produce offer them the best value for money. Slowly, we hope more military product will be procured by them.

The sloppy marketing and terrible lack of open source of Chinese military product info are also some stumbling block need to be tackle in order for china military product to be widely accepted.

Lion said:

Those Argentina formers are mainly layman. Why do you care much of their opinion. Argentina armed force purchase of Z-11 and license produce is a first positive step. Definitely those on top has a much open mind. Of cos, budget is a big problem to them. I believe Chinese military produce offer them the best value for money. Slowly, we hope more military product will be procured by them.

The sloppy marketing and terrible lack of open source of Chinese military product info are also some stumbling block need to be tackle in order for china military product to be widely accepted.

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Lion is right guys, I am all American and proud of it, that doesn't mean I don't love and care about the Chinese people or consider you guys some of my best friends. Player is Chinese and proud of it, I still consider him my brother, if you read his posts he is very fair about America and China. Is China perfect? Is America perfect? I hope when you read my posts you will find them fair and honest even if you disagree. China like America is in the midst of dramatic changes and reforms, some good some bad, if we can speak the truth and remind one another what kind of men we ought to be, perhaps we can avoid the conflict that those who profit from such nonsense can't wait to see. The most beautifull of swords are the ones to keep the peace, not shed innocent blood, and make no mistake, we all bleed red. I am very impressed with the J-20 and I am impressed that the Chinese military is allowing us all a closer looker, some will say intimidation, others will say they are giving away our secrets. The truth gentlemen is likely somewhere in between, to open your hand and show your potential adversary your capability may be very wise, as I have stated before China and America have a destiny, I will act in good faith to win the peace. Now I agree that China is often unfairly maligned, but when America or our military make mistakes or act wrongfully, those responsible are brought to justice swiftly, human rights are all of our responsibility. I will state it once again for the record, Dr. Song is very honest and fair, his airplane is the same, a very capable prototype of an advance fifth gen fighter. So lets disagree without being disagreeable, and lets try to be fair and give one another the benefit of the doubt. Cheers gentlemen, and lets keep this a great forum! Most respectfully, your servant, and friend, Brat.

Lion said:

Those Argentina formers are mainly layman. Why do you care much of their opinion. Argentina armed force purchase of Z-11 and license produce is a first positive step. Definitely those on top has a much open mind. Of cos, budget is a big problem to them. I believe Chinese military produce offer them the best value for money. Slowly, we hope more military product will be procured by them.

The sloppy marketing and terrible lack of open source of Chinese military product info are also some stumbling block need to be tackle in order for china military product to be widely accepted.

Click to expand...

In latin america up to what i know there are different views about chinese technology, in nations like Mexico, due to the economic competition between Mexico and China for the US market there is the view in Mexico that Chinese cheap goods are a direct economic threat to the mexican economy and a powerful competitor for direct investment.
The mexican government is far right, so it`s utterly aligned to the US sphere of influence. So Chinese military imports are basicly null, no chances for J-10s, JF-17 and much less J-20 and one of the main reasons is in Mexico there are many US aerospace companies that export to the US from helicopter and aircraft fuselages to jet engine parts, so a Chinese military jet in mexican hands is a thing China won`t risk .
However there is some economic partnership for civil goods such as bikes an cars between mexican and chinese companies, so only in the area of civil aircraft China and Mexico could work in the future.
.

The Rest of Latin america has different views.

Argentina has interest to export food and raw materials to China and like Brazil, has a well developed economy and technology, since the year 2000 Brazil lead Mercosur has the agenda of become an independent economic power in a multipolar world.

Argentina has a well developed aerospace industry, they are able to develop helicopters and build jet trainers, they can design rockets and satellites, so Argentina like brazil can and do co-operate in joint programs with China, why? simple China like Russia can share some technologies that they want to absorb.

It is possible that Brazil and argentina could buy some Chinese military hardware but more on the tech transfer basis, argentina today builds helicopters, in fact the the most advanced domestic helicopter industry in latin america is in Argentina, in Mexico we build helicopters too, but they are Bell and Mc Donnal helicopters so they are american designs and are build only in Mexico privately, it means they are build by these companies and just the labour is mexican.

Brazil also builds Helicopters, in fact they build the same Helicopter that China builds and calls Z-11, the Eurocopter Squirrel.

The only Venezuela and Bolivia have bought chinese hardware because contrary to what many people think, there is a south american community and they have agree in the brazilian proposal to buy and get tech transfers other than american in order to get independent technological capabilities.

The J-20 well perhaps in 2040 hahaha, J-10 perhaps Venezuela or Argentina, maybe who knows, but i doubt the South american community will get to cozy with China, they have the policy of do not become dependant upon any source.



However Brazil builds it like a foreign owned company, so the helicopter also belongs to Eurocopter

[video=youtube;oNxVdeDAP00]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNxVdeDAP00[/video]

[video=youtube;eBFUBv2Iec4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBFUBv2Iec4&feature=related[/video]