Martian
Senior Member
Ha ha ha. Modesty will get you nowhere. I read your well-written articles too.
J-20... The New Generation Fighter II
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Ha ha ha. Modesty will get you nowhere. I read your well-written articles too.
Even so, better he quote you than someone else.
Your blog was about, oh, 9,000 times better than the crap that Carlo Kopp posted:
"The accuracy with which the Chengdu engineers replicated key shaping features could be explained by their reverse engineering the design rules from high resolution imagery of US aircraft."
And I thought I was an unqualified armchair general. LoL.
Yeah, I mean, seriously.....copying an aircraft by satellite. That's laughable.
Judging from the comments Kopp is getting a lot of flak...ironically not because he thought that the Chinese reverse engineered the plane but because he was such a "Chinese fanboy" by exaggerating the J-20's capabilities.
I don't think Tphuang is getting any flak...yet. Anyways Kopp said your analysis was interesting so there must've been some merit to the "nonsense" you were talking about.
Major Edit: How stupid of me to say that Tphuang is not getting flak yet lol. They absolutely LOVED your analyses since it was detailed and balanced!
I don't think Tphuang is getting any flak...yet. Anyways Kopp said your analysis was interesting so there must've been some merit to the "nonsense" you were talking about.
Major Edit: How stupid of me to say that Tphuang is not getting flak yet lol. They absolutely LOVED your analyses since it was detailed and balanced!
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airsuperiority
Captain
I rather they quote you, who represents SDF at this stage, than some so-called experts. Sometimes I think those experts reward that title themselves, otherwise they share nothing that qualifies them as one
IronsightSniper
Junior Member
Let's evaluate the Russian T-50 according to known standard criteria for a modern stealth fighter design.
1. Frameless cockpit canopy
2. Continuous curvature
3. Diverterless Supersonic Inlets (i.e. DSI) technology. F-22 lacks this advanced stealth design feature. Similar to F-35 stealth feature.
4. Extensive saw-toothed edges (e.g. landing gear bays and on engine nozzles)
5. Planform alignment
6. Low Observable Axisymmetrical Nozzle (i.e. LOAN) technology. Similar to F-35 stealth feature.
7. Gold-tinted RAM-coating cockpit canopy.
8. Internal weapons bays.
9. Serpentine air inlets (or S-air inlets).
10. Black RAM coating on entire aircraft. Similar to black RAM coating on F-117 Nighthawk.
The T-50 fully satisfies criterion #8 and only partially satisfies #4 and #5. The T-50 currently lacks a full 7 out of 10 stealth design features seen on the J-20. You can argue whether the T-50 meets a couple of the other criteria, but it is obvious that the current T-50 is seriously deficient. Any objective person can see that the T-50 needs a radical re-design to become a competitive modern stealth fighter.
The radar signature from the T-50's exposed fan blades alone is so enormous that it is questionable whether the T-50 can be classified as a stealth fighter at all.
Russian T-50 with exposed engine fan blades
The question comes when one asks who actually determines criterion for 5th Gen fighters? There are some Moderators in other forums who have access to this but for now they keep it Opsec :/
Asides from that, half the crap we know about the J-20 comes from Chinese Internet and "civilian" sources. Until concrete information (although, this is PRC we're talking about here) comes out, it's capabilities may range from that of a F-4 Phantom to that of a Bird of Prey (not the on in Star Trek.)
As I understand it, regarding the PAK-FA's engine fan's, it should be quite obvious that those aren't the engines they're using. Also, you should be careful when you're referring to the PAK-FA, as it's completely different from the production variant (T-50), as PAK-FAs are just here for testing and aren't designed for stealth, not yet.
Actually, Boeing has already proposed a 6th Gen fighter a long time back. In fact, they didn't even plan it be a fighter, it was going to be a UCAV, that's right, unmanned! It was also said that it has super-VLO capabilities (some say it's at -60 dbsm, F-22's is -40 dbsm.) I don't remember the name of it, but many people say that the Bird of Prey was the experimental prototype for the Bird of Prey. It's also believed to utilize Active Camouflage, which would essentially make it invisible to "our lightwaves" (although active camouflage studies in the Private sector hasn't been doing that well...the Bird of Prey was a black program and did receive many mullahs.)
Here's a nice picture of it, personally when we wake up with China, India, and Europe as our competitors, this is what will shoot down all T-50s, J-20s, and Eurofighters!
That actually isn't far off. If equipped with a 4000x4000 pixel image of say, a F-22 raptor, you can measure the approximate angles of it's shaping, which is what Kopp claimed the Chinese did in the first place. Not to mention the Chinese probably took some know-how from that former B-2 engineer that they bought plans from.
Martian
Senior Member
Stop making endless excuses. T-50 is clearly inferior to J-20.
How many excuses do you have? It's obvious to everyone that the T-50 is very crude and far behind the J-20.
This is what a polished J-20 stealth fighter prototype looks like:
China's J-20 stealth fighter
And this other T-50 is a crude (e.g. exposed rivets, exposed engine fan blades, metal-framed cockpit canopy, no RAM coating, no Serpentine air inlets, no DSI, etc.) attempt at a stealth fighter:
Russian T-50. Is it even stealthy? Look at those giant engine fan blades.
How many excuses do you have? It's obvious to everyone that the T-50 is very crude and far behind the J-20.
This is what a polished J-20 stealth fighter prototype looks like:
China's J-20 stealth fighter
And this other T-50 is a crude (e.g. exposed rivets, exposed engine fan blades, metal-framed cockpit canopy, no RAM coating, no Serpentine air inlets, no DSI, etc.) attempt at a stealth fighter:
Russian T-50. Is it even stealthy? Look at those giant engine fan blades.
Martian
Senior Member
General Brady on T-50: “I don’t know if it’s really a fifth-generation aircraft”
The Russian T-50 prototype falls far short of expectations (e.g. does not meet most of the ten criteria that I have formerly listed for a stealth fighter design). The biggest failing is in the design of the air inlets. The Russians didn't bother at all to shield the engine fan blades from enemy radar. Also, the metal frame on the cockpit canopy is another clear lack of effort.
If you believe my opinion is unfair in saying that the Russian T-50 falls far short of a modern fifth-generation stealth fighter, would you accept the opinion of an expert instead? Four-star general Roger Brady does not believe that the Russian T-50 qualifies as a fifth generation stealth fighter: “I don’t know if it’s really a fifth-generation aircraft” (see article below).
In conclusion, I am willing to revise my assessment of the Russian T-50, as judged by my list of ten objective stealth design features, if there is a serious re-design. I stand by my claim that the current Russian T-50 design (if allowed to stay mostly intact) is not a worthy competitor to China's J-20 or U.S. F-22 and F-35.
"Leaders not impressed by new Russian fighter
By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Mar 22, 2010 19:53:27 EDT
The flying debut of Russia’s answer to the F-22 Raptor isn’t wowing Air Force leaders.
Dubbed the T-50 or PAK-FA, the fifth-generation stealth fighter jet made its maiden flight Jan. 29 — 47 minutes over eastern Russia — and has flown at least twice since then. The twin-engine jet will replace the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker, both fourth-generation front-line fighters.
The first operational T-50s should be delivered in 2015, the same year the Air Force expects its first F-35 Lightning II. Also a fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 has a single supersonic engine and stealth capabilities.
“I didn’t see anything … that would cause me to rethink plans for the F-22 or F-35,” Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told reporters Feb. 18 at the Air Force Association’s winter conference, held in Orlando, Fla.
“Russia has a robust [aircraft industry],” Donley added. “This is not a surprise in that context.”
The PAK-FA resembles the F-22 — distinctive tilted rear tail fins and all — and has many of the same high-tech features, including digital avionics, a phased-array radar and communications equipment to link the fighter to command and control centers, according to the Russian news agency Tass.
The Air Force ordered the last of its 187 F-22s in 2009. Russia has not had a new fighter in nearly 20 years; the Indian air force is also sponsoring development of a version of the T-50.
“It looks like a plane we’ve seen before,” Gen. Roger Brady, the air boss for NATO and commander of U.S. Air Forces in Europe, said at the conference.
Gen. Gary North, commander of Pacific Air Forces, made clear his impression of the fighter: “I guess the greatest flattery is how much they copy you.”
Still, the four-stars wonder whether the T-50 will live up to its fifth-generation billing.
“I don’t know if it’s really a fifth-generation aircraft,” Brady said. “What I do know is that it’s very clear that they’re working on a fifth-generation technology.”
For Brady, Russia’s push on the development front signals that the U.S. cannot settle for the status quo.
“The key is, we must continue to do fifth-generation and sixth-generation research and put money against it because other people clearly are,” Brady said.
North added that the Pentagon must ensure fourth-generation jets such as the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 are continually upgraded.
“If we’re not going to buy more, what we’ve got to have is the very best that our sons and daughters go out to fight with,” he said.
In tandem with the T-50 project, Russia is developing a long-range bomber.
“We won’t limit ourselves to just one new model,” Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said March 1. 'We must start work on a prospective long-range aircraft, our new strategic bomber.'”
Note: Thank you to Sudhir007 for the newslink.
Look closely, do you see those gigantic fan blades in the engine? Enemy radar can see them too. So, just exactly how is the Russian T-50 stealthy?
The Russian T-50 prototype falls far short of expectations (e.g. does not meet most of the ten criteria that I have formerly listed for a stealth fighter design). The biggest failing is in the design of the air inlets. The Russians didn't bother at all to shield the engine fan blades from enemy radar. Also, the metal frame on the cockpit canopy is another clear lack of effort.
If you believe my opinion is unfair in saying that the Russian T-50 falls far short of a modern fifth-generation stealth fighter, would you accept the opinion of an expert instead? Four-star general Roger Brady does not believe that the Russian T-50 qualifies as a fifth generation stealth fighter: “I don’t know if it’s really a fifth-generation aircraft” (see article below).
In conclusion, I am willing to revise my assessment of the Russian T-50, as judged by my list of ten objective stealth design features, if there is a serious re-design. I stand by my claim that the current Russian T-50 design (if allowed to stay mostly intact) is not a worthy competitor to China's J-20 or U.S. F-22 and F-35.
"Leaders not impressed by new Russian fighter
By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Mar 22, 2010 19:53:27 EDT
The flying debut of Russia’s answer to the F-22 Raptor isn’t wowing Air Force leaders.
Dubbed the T-50 or PAK-FA, the fifth-generation stealth fighter jet made its maiden flight Jan. 29 — 47 minutes over eastern Russia — and has flown at least twice since then. The twin-engine jet will replace the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker, both fourth-generation front-line fighters.
The first operational T-50s should be delivered in 2015, the same year the Air Force expects its first F-35 Lightning II. Also a fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 has a single supersonic engine and stealth capabilities.
“I didn’t see anything … that would cause me to rethink plans for the F-22 or F-35,” Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told reporters Feb. 18 at the Air Force Association’s winter conference, held in Orlando, Fla.
“Russia has a robust [aircraft industry],” Donley added. “This is not a surprise in that context.”
The PAK-FA resembles the F-22 — distinctive tilted rear tail fins and all — and has many of the same high-tech features, including digital avionics, a phased-array radar and communications equipment to link the fighter to command and control centers, according to the Russian news agency Tass.
The Air Force ordered the last of its 187 F-22s in 2009. Russia has not had a new fighter in nearly 20 years; the Indian air force is also sponsoring development of a version of the T-50.
“It looks like a plane we’ve seen before,” Gen. Roger Brady, the air boss for NATO and commander of U.S. Air Forces in Europe, said at the conference.
Gen. Gary North, commander of Pacific Air Forces, made clear his impression of the fighter: “I guess the greatest flattery is how much they copy you.”
Still, the four-stars wonder whether the T-50 will live up to its fifth-generation billing.
“I don’t know if it’s really a fifth-generation aircraft,” Brady said. “What I do know is that it’s very clear that they’re working on a fifth-generation technology.”
For Brady, Russia’s push on the development front signals that the U.S. cannot settle for the status quo.
“The key is, we must continue to do fifth-generation and sixth-generation research and put money against it because other people clearly are,” Brady said.
North added that the Pentagon must ensure fourth-generation jets such as the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 are continually upgraded.
“If we’re not going to buy more, what we’ve got to have is the very best that our sons and daughters go out to fight with,” he said.
In tandem with the T-50 project, Russia is developing a long-range bomber.
“We won’t limit ourselves to just one new model,” Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said March 1. 'We must start work on a prospective long-range aircraft, our new strategic bomber.'”
Note: Thank you to Sudhir007 for the newslink.
Look closely, do you see those gigantic fan blades in the engine? Enemy radar can see them too. So, just exactly how is the Russian T-50 stealthy?
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Martian
Senior Member
Russian T-50 wheel-bay doors are not serrated/saw-toothed
I'm disappointed at the lack of serrated wheel-bay doors on the Russian T-50. Let's compare the wheel-bay doors for China's J-20 and Russian T-50.
J-20's serrated wheel-bay door
Once again, we will use the eyeball-test. Do you see serrated edges on the Russian T-50 wheel bay door?
I'm disappointed at the lack of serrated wheel-bay doors on the Russian T-50. Let's compare the wheel-bay doors for China's J-20 and Russian T-50.
J-20's serrated wheel-bay door
Once again, we will use the eyeball-test. Do you see serrated edges on the Russian T-50 wheel bay door?
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