J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Martian

Senior Member
Majority opinion vs. minority view

So was everyone just full of it? After the J-20 was revealed, there were those that said the J-20 and F-22 were old school and the F-35 and T-50 were advanced stealth designs. Yet everyone seems to still desire an F-22 over a F-35. All these stories are contradicting one another.

You have only two choices. There is one group that says the Russian T-50 is not stealthy. There is a much smaller group, which is extremely biased, that claims otherwise. Let's take a look at the two widely disparate views.

Majority view:

American/NATO four-star general Roger Brady said that he doesn't believe the Russian T-50 qualifies as a fifth-generation fighter. No such comment by the American military has been made about China's J-20. Bottom line: American military gives you an unbiased opinion regarding its military competitors in China and Russia.

Your eyes see the exposed gigantic engine fan blades on the Russian T-50. From the American F-18E engine fan blocker, you know that the exposed fan blades cannot be fully covered from view without a complete redesign of the T-50. Changing the T-50's straight air-inlets into serpentine air-inlets will also require design changes to the fuselage, which affect the space available for the weapon bays. In other words, a complete redesign is necessary.

Physics informs you that radar will reflect off exposed metal parts. There are plenty of exposed metal parts on the Russian T-50. By far, the exposed engine fan blades are the largest radar reflectors. There are other radar reflectors in the metal-framed cockpit canopy and lack of serrated edges on the Russian T-50's wheel-bay doors and engine nozzle-fuselage interface.

In a videotaped inspection tour and interview, Putin was very careful to claim that the T-50 would have more maneuverability, armament, and range than the F-22, but he avoided discussing the topic of stealth.

The Russian T-50 is an upgraded Su-27 or Su-30. Physics and logic dictate that the Russian T-50 is not stealthy.

Minority view:

The director of Sukhoi is damaging his credibility in claiming that the Russian T-50's problems can be solved. The reason that the United States designed and built a fifth-generation aircraft was to circumvent all of the problems with a non-stealthy fourth-generation aircraft.

It is not possible to upgrade an American F-18E Super Hornet into a fifth-generation fighter. America has tried with the engine fan blocker, but it still falls far short.

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Finally, some people say let's trust the Sukhoi aircraft designers; don't worry they know what they're doing. That is a silly position for two reasons. Firstly, most of us prefer to trust our eyes and an American four-star general; instead of letting Sukhoi claim whatever they want: Don't worry, all these problems will be fixed!

Excuse me, but why are these glaring problems on the Russian T-50 technology demonstrator? I have no choice, but to give Sukhoi low marks for its effort. Also, I cannot see how the Russian T-50 non-stealth problems can be solved without a complete re-design.

It is my opinion that the French Rafale is far stealthier than the current Russian T-50. The French did a much better job of hiding their engine fan blades. Though the Rafale does not rise to the level of stealthiness of the F-22 or J-20, your eyes can see the obvious difference between the Rafale and the T-50.

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French Rafale air intake. The designers did a good job in hiding most of the engine fan blades, but I can still see a portion of the exposed fan blades.

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Russian T-50 air intake with fully-exposed engine fan blades
 
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EDIATH

Junior Member
You just can't make enough physical models and test them adequately. Why do you think China is building so many large super-computers?

Exactly, that's why I'm saying it's the method of testing that counts. It always starts with theoretical proposals, building up mathematical models, simulating variables within the physical environment i.e. the testing process on physical models, data processing where supercomputers etc, come to play, and analytical works to determine the application of the idea. Other people's design may inspire one to take the first step but that's nowhere close to simply adopt the idea and realize it. The copy-from-photo theory is utterly superficial.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
From what I've heard the next testflight will be a month from the first flight (maybe later). They need that time to analyse the data gathered from the first flight.

Thanks.. This is typical for any R&D on any new equipment. Maybe the second time we will see a true full fledged test site with the landing gear up.
 

tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
I've been trying to gauge peoples thoughts on the J-20 by reading threads about it on the Indian Defense Forum, the Pakistan Defense Forum, and the Defence Talk Forum. Here are my findings

Indian Defence Forum: When the J-20 first flew the responders seemed to be awestruck and congratulated the work the project and were envious. All too soon however it went back to mostly China bashing, with claims of copying the Mig 1.44, and democracy vs CCP banter. Especially annoying was some loony that goes by Mao Mao and is dogmatic about India's greatness and Chinese Evil. Tried to convince him otherwise but pretty pointless

Pakistan Defence Forum: Far too optimistic and congratulatory. Later comes a hardcore hater of Canards who goes by Gambit who rambles on for pages with wikipedia articles. Eventually settles down and has some meaningful discussion on the plane.

Defence Talk Forum: Pretty cynical but has meaningful discussion from the start and has moderate responders who agree on the important issues and discusses the small issues.

In conclusion I'm glad to be back on Sinodefence forum with people who can make reasonable claims and back them up.
 
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kyanges

Junior Member
Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

It is my opinion that the French Rafale is far stealthier than the current Russian T-50. The French did a much better job of hiding their engine fan blades. Though the Rafale does not rise to the level of stealthiness of the F-22 or J-20, your eyes can see the obvious difference between the Rafale and the T-50.

Isn't there a little more to it than fan blades? I don't disagree that covered fan blades would be stealthier, but considering the rest of the airframe, the Rafale doesn't really have anything else stealthy to brag about does it?
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

the fan blade you see in T-50 air inlet may be radar blocker.
B-1 bomber also employed radar blocker but with different design.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
To me, the T-50 doesn't look stealthy at all; the airframe is full of rivets and antenna-like stuff, the air intake simply look conventional. Doesn't it has coasting?
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

the fan blade you see in T-50 air inlet may be radar blocker.
B-1 bomber also employed radar blocker but with different design.

I believe the 1st T-50 prototype does not have blockers. I read at AFM that the 3rd prototype onwards will contain the blocker.

Its quite a complex blocker similar to the one installed on the X-32. F/A-18E/F, EF-Typhoon use simpler non-moving blockers
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
To me, the T-50 doesn't look stealthy at all; the airframe is full of rivets and antenna-like stuff, the air intake simply look conventional. Doesn't it has coasting?

Its a 'Prototype'. The very 1st flying prototype. It has an untreated airframe. It does not have any blockers installed. A fully complete machine has not flown. I think prototype 3 or 4 will be.

Regarding antennas, look at those 2 on the Raptor nose :
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