J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

Status
Not open for further replies.
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I’m really glad they added mirrors for the J20, although it’s interesting that the mirrors seemed to be attached directly to the canopy glass rather than the additionally added internal frame.

I imagine that would be the case on earlier birds, as the frame as added later to enhance structural strength and not originally intended to be part of the design, so earlier models probably already had mirrors ordered/fitted per the original design. It would be interesting to see if they change it so that in later blocks the mirrors are attached to the new frame instead.

Also, it seems to be an odd cultural different between America and everyone else where only the Americans seem to omit mirrors even when they could easily have them fitted.
 
KFX

KFX

New Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
They haven't done so yet for any of the modern flanker variants or CAC's products. The USN has built more F-18s than the PLAAF has in entire modern fighters >4th gen. China's industrial scale elsewhere has not quite translated to the aerospace field. High tech fields aren't as easy to achieve scale and low costs and I know the PLA hasn't been militarising for as long as the Americans but so far there's just talk and rumours of expanding production lines. The US has always had insane output rates since the second world war. Just to put things in perspective there are already well over 500 F-35 units produced. Many are for other nations but that's the production rate China's needs to eventually match. If it were a race, the US isn't just in front of China (in terms of already built fighters) but traveling at a higher velocity and possibly still accelerating faster given new production facilities for the F-35.
Click to expand...

It took them years to ramp up production on the ARJ21 line, so for a more complex aircraft like J-20 it's reasonable for them to take a long time to speed things up. There is also the question of doctrine. In East China Sea and South China Sea contingencies airpower will play a key role, but Beijing also has far more short/medium range missiles at its disposal. Cheap weapons that create big headaches for Washington, Tokyo, and Taipei. China just doesn't need as many planes.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
plawolf said:
I’m really glad they added mirrors for the J20, although it’s interesting that the mirrors seemed to be attached directly to the canopy glass rather than the additionally added internal frame
Click to expand...
The cockpit does have something of a RCS return so adding a frame work without consideration of the energies return could increase the RCS return. The cockpit glass has some features that would reduce the cross section return but there is a limit.
 
R

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
plawolf said:
I’m really glad they added mirrors for the J20, although it’s interesting that the mirrors seemed to be attached directly to the canopy glass rather than the additionally added internal frame.

I imagine that would be the case on earlier birds, as the frame as added later to enhance structural strength and not originally intended to be part of the design, so earlier models probably already had mirrors ordered/fitted per the original design. It would be interesting to see if they change it so that in later blocks the mirrors are attached to the new frame instead.

Also, it seems to be an odd cultural different between America and everyone else where only the Americans seem to omit mirrors even when they could easily have them fitted.
Click to expand...

Mirrors obstruct the pilot’s vision to the front and side and and yet provides only very limited added vsiwbility to the rear. it is not all together clear that given proper pilot training and doctrine, adding mirrors constitutes a boom or a hinderance to the pi lot’s situational awareness.

that is the case if the pilot relied mostly on the eye ball for the visual spectrum. If the aircraft really has a sophisticated distributed aperture, high resolution, multi-spectrum electro-optical suite, as the J-20 is alleged to have, the case for adding mirrors is even weaker.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Richard Santos said:
Mirrors obstruct the pilot’s vision to the front and side and and yet provides only very limited added vsiwbility to the rear. it is not all together clear that given proper pilot training and doctrine, adding mirrors constitutes a boom or a hinderance to the pi lot’s situational awareness.

that is the case if the pilot relied mostly on the eye ball for the visual spectrum. If the aircraft really has a sophisticated distributed aperture, high resolution, multi-spectrum electro-optical suite, as the J-20 is alleged to have, the case for adding mirrors is even weaker.
Click to expand...

Well, even with an EODAS system with an HMD to overlay it, your pilot is hardly going to be turning their head 120+ degrees to either side to look at what your EODAS can detect and track posterior to the aircraft that a mirror would allow you to catch a glimpse of anyway.

If anything, the EODAS +HMD overlay would be far more useful to track targets anterior to the aircraft where your head is more often pointed towards, including allowing you to see "through" the canopy frame and/or any mirrors if you choose to install them in the canopy or not.
So no, I don't think EODAS+HMD is the same as a "replacement" for mirrors (if the specific minor capabilities that a mirror brings is even that important to begin with, which I think it isn't).


That said I agree that mirrors in cockpits are far from a necessity in this day and age, and there's a reason why it's not a regular feature seen on J-20s.
 
B

Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Bltizo said:
Well, even with an EODAS system with an HMD to overlay it, your pilot is hardly going to be turning their head 120+ degrees to either side to look at what your EODAS can detect and track posterior to the aircraft that a mirror would allow you to catch a glimpse of anyway.

If anything, the EODAS +HMD overlay would be far more useful to track targets anterior to the aircraft where your head is more often pointed towards, including allowing you to see "through" the canopy frame and/or any mirrors if you choose to install them in the canopy or not.
So no, I don't think EODAS+HMD is the same as a "replacement" for mirrors (if the specific minor capabilities that a mirror brings is even that important to begin with, which I think it isn't).


That said I agree that mirrors in cockpits are far from a necessity in this day and age, and there's a reason why it's not a regular feature seen on J-20s.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is the pilot's personal request?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tam
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The cockpit does have something of a RCS return so adding a frame work without consideration of the energies return could increase the RCS return. The cockpit glass has some features that would reduce the cross section return but there is a limit.
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think Chinese engineers did not know that or did not account for that when they added the internal support frame?

Not that it is added international, meaning the special shaping, coatings and material engineering used on the canopies to stop radar waves from getting a return from inside the cockpit would also apply to shielding the internal frame from enemy radar.

The F35 has a similar internal frame. Did you feel the need to point out the need for care and consideration there too?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top