J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII


Temstar

Junior Member
Registered Member
J-20 4 ++ for now isn't it
You've stumbled into a very famous meme in China about J-20 in particular and SFA in general. Let me explain:

30/07/2009 - US Congress pass resolution to scrape F-22 assembly line. The plan was for an eventual 187 F-22 to be produced, down from initial projection of 750. Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense at the time argued two weeks prior to the resolution that F-22 was too expensive and anyway China will not have any 5th generation fighters by 2020, and only very small numbers by 2025 so there's nothing to be worried about. Obviously he based this on intelligence he had on hand at that time.

12f0-izeysaz3860232.png
08/11/2009 - in a TV interview, PLAAF lieutenant general He Weirong admitted that there is in fact a 4th generation (China's way of counting, equivalent to US 5th generation, ie same as F-22 and F-35) fighter program within PLAAF and one would expect the plane to be in PLAAF service in 8-10 years. This caused a huge stir internationally because it directly ran counter to Gate's intelligence and his reason behind scrapping F-22 assembly line. Many expected readjustment from the US, perhaps keeping F-22 assembly open and resume production as a counter to this previously unknown PLAAF aircraft.

And then, begins the strategic deception:
8110-izeysaz3860229.png
On 23/11/2009, two weeks after He Weirong's interview, Xinhua released an article which explains that the "4th generation aircraft" mentioned by certain PLAAF personale in fact refers to a J-10 upgrade project.

On 25/11/2009, two days after the article in Xinhua, Global Times also comes out with an article saying the new aircraft program is an upgraded J-10, qualitatively different from US 5th generation aircraft like F-22 which possess stealth, supercruise and supermanoeuvrability.

On 29/11/2009, Zhang Zhaozhong was interviewed on TV in a now legendary interview about this mysterious aircraft and he famously said "this thing isn't a 4th generation fighter in the US sense, nor a 5th generation fighter in the Russian sense. We are just doing an upgrade based on J-10. If I were to understand J-10 as 3.5 generation then this thing would be about 3.7 or 3.8. Do you think 4th generation fighters are that easy to design? It took the US 22 years to come up with the F-22, we don't even have any plans for a 4th generation fighter currently, it's impossible for China."
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08/01/2011, just prior to Robert Gates' trip to China he said "I understand China is developing a stealth aircraft, their progress may be more advanced than we initially suspected."

09/01/2011, Robert Gates lands in Beijing

11/01/2011, J-20's maiden flight, photo of Robert Gates at that time:
71ca-izeysaz3860530.jpg
That night, Ministry of National Defense spokesperson said Chinese weapon development are not targeted at any country. Any timing issues are coincidence and not directed any anyone.

On December 2011, the last F-22 ever to be produced rolled off the assembly line. The assembly line was scrapped there after per congress resolution.

After the initial incident, He Weirong was demoted and shuffled onto some unimportant job, some sort of youth program I believe.

The meme survives to this day within China, where military fans would ironically refer to J-20 as "J-10+10", "J-10 Pro Max", "J-10++" etc etc
 
Last edited:

ougoah

Major
Registered Member
Whatever China says it has and is up to, it has much more and much better in greater development state than one would suppose.

Whatever China shows, the rule generally was to have a replacement type already in testing.

Although this pattern may have changed a little now and become more showy in an effort to deter the US from over-estimating its capabilities against China and actually beginning a kinetic engagement, something China would much rather avoid. It could be a case of deterring morons in charge of US policy (they surprisingly are much worse than we give them credit for...honestly appallingly bad leaders) from killing both the US and China in one miscalculated move. Need to let the American hawks understand there is absolutely only death in engaging China in kinetic war. This is why China needs to eventually come out and officially disclose how large their minimum warhead count really is.
 

Josh Luo

Senior Member
Registered Member
You've stumbled into a very famous meme in China about J-20 in particular and SFA in general. Let me explain:

30/07/2009 - US Congress pass resolution to scrape F-22 assembly line. The plan was for an eventual 187 F-22 to be produced, down from initial projection of 750. Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense at the time argued two weeks prior to the resolution that F-22 was too expensive and anyway China will not have any 5th generation fighters by 2020, and only very small numbers by 2025 so there's nothing to be worried about. Obviously he based this on intelligence he had on hand at that time.

View attachment 68852
08/11/2009 - in a TV interview, PLAAF lieutenant general He Weirong admitted that there is in fact a 4th generation (China's way of counting, equivalent to US 5th generation, ie same as F-22 and F-35) fighter program within PLAAF and one would expect the plane to be in PLAAF service in 8-10 years. This caused a huge stir internationally because it directly ran counter to Gate's intelligence and his reason behind scrapping F-22 assembly line. Many expected readjustment from the US, perhaps keeping F-22 assembly open and resume production as a counter to this previously unknown PLAAF aircraft.

And then, begins the strategic deception:
View attachment 68853
On 23/11/2009, two weeks after He Weirong's interview, Xinhua released an article which explains that the "4th generation aircraft" mentioned by certain PLAAF personale in fact refers to a J-10 upgrade project.

On 25/11/2009, two days after the article in Xinhua, Global Times also comes out with an article saying the new aircraft program is an upgraded J-10, qualitatively different from US 5th generation aircraft like F-22 which possess stealth, supercruise and supermanoeuvrability.

On 29/11/2009, Zhang Zhaozhong was interviewed on TV in a now legendary interview about this mysterious aircraft and he famously said "this thing isn't a 4th generation fighter in the US sense, nor a 5th generation fighter in the Russian sense. We are just doing an upgrade based on J-10. If I were to understand J-10 as 3.5 generation then this thing would be about 3.7 or 3.8. Do you think 4th generation fighters are that easy to design? It took the US 22 years to come up with the F-22, we don't even have any plans for a 4th generation fighter currently, it's impossible for China."
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

08/01/2011, just prior to Robert Gates' trip to China he said "I understand China is developing a stealth aircraft, their progress may be more advanced than we initially suspected."

09/01/2011, Robert Gates lands in Beijing

11/01/2011, J-20's maiden flight, photo of Robert Gates at that time:
View attachment 68856
That night, Ministry of National Defense spokesperson said Chinese weapon development are not targeted at any country. Any timing issues are coincidence and not directed any anyone.

On December 2011, the last F-22 ever to be produced rolled off the assembly line. The assembly line was scrapped there after per congress resolution.

After the initial incident, He Weirong was demoted and shuffled onto some unimportant job, some sort of youth program I believe.

The meme survives to this day within China, where military fans would ironically refer to J-20 as "J-10+10", "J-10 Pro Max", "J-10++" etc etc
This incident roughly coincided with the CIA having its entire personnel network botched in China, with many agents executed. Look back 10 years later, it appeared that Beijing significantly outmaneuvered Washington during the 2010-2012 period.
 

davidau

Junior Member
Registered Member
Whatever China says it has and is up to, it has much more and much better in greater development state than one would suppose.

Whatever China shows, the rule generally was to have a replacement type already in testing.

Although this pattern may have changed a little now and become more showy in an effort to deter the US from over-estimating its capabilities against China and actually beginning a kinetic engagement, something China would much rather avoid. It could be a case of deterring morons in charge of US policy (they surprisingly are much worse than we give them credit for...honestly appallingly bad leaders) from killing both the US and China in one miscalculated move. Need to let the American hawks understand there is absolutely only death in engaging China in kinetic war. This is why China needs to eventually come out and officially disclose how large their minimum warhead count really is.
If you play a hand of poker, you don't let your opponent know what you have, but keep them guessing. Why should China let US hawks know what minimum nuclear warheads they possess?
 

siegecrossbow

Brigadier
Staff member
Super Moderator
You've stumbled into a very famous meme in China about J-20 in particular and SFA in general. Let me explain:

30/07/2009 - US Congress pass resolution to scrape F-22 assembly line. The plan was for an eventual 187 F-22 to be produced, down from initial projection of 750. Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense at the time argued two weeks prior to the resolution that F-22 was too expensive and anyway China will not have any 5th generation fighters by 2020, and only very small numbers by 2025 so there's nothing to be worried about. Obviously he based this on intelligence he had on hand at that time.

View attachment 68852
08/11/2009 - in a TV interview, PLAAF lieutenant general He Weirong admitted that there is in fact a 4th generation (China's way of counting, equivalent to US 5th generation, ie same as F-22 and F-35) fighter program within PLAAF and one would expect the plane to be in PLAAF service in 8-10 years. This caused a huge stir internationally because it directly ran counter to Gate's intelligence and his reason behind scrapping F-22 assembly line. Many expected readjustment from the US, perhaps keeping F-22 assembly open and resume production as a counter to this previously unknown PLAAF aircraft.

And then, begins the strategic deception:
View attachment 68853
On 23/11/2009, two weeks after He Weirong's interview, Xinhua released an article which explains that the "4th generation aircraft" mentioned by certain PLAAF personale in fact refers to a J-10 upgrade project.

On 25/11/2009, two days after the article in Xinhua, Global Times also comes out with an article saying the new aircraft program is an upgraded J-10, qualitatively different from US 5th generation aircraft like F-22 which possess stealth, supercruise and supermanoeuvrability.

On 29/11/2009, Zhang Zhaozhong was interviewed on TV in a now legendary interview about this mysterious aircraft and he famously said "this thing isn't a 4th generation fighter in the US sense, nor a 5th generation fighter in the Russian sense. We are just doing an upgrade based on J-10. If I were to understand J-10 as 3.5 generation then this thing would be about 3.7 or 3.8. Do you think 4th generation fighters are that easy to design? It took the US 22 years to come up with the F-22, we don't even have any plans for a 4th generation fighter currently, it's impossible for China."
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

08/01/2011, just prior to Robert Gates' trip to China he said "I understand China is developing a stealth aircraft, their progress may be more advanced than we initially suspected."

09/01/2011, Robert Gates lands in Beijing

11/01/2011, J-20's maiden flight, photo of Robert Gates at that time:
View attachment 68856
That night, Ministry of National Defense spokesperson said Chinese weapon development are not targeted at any country. Any timing issues are coincidence and not directed any anyone.

On December 2011, the last F-22 ever to be produced rolled off the assembly line. The assembly line was scrapped there after per congress resolution.

After the initial incident, He Weirong was demoted and shuffled onto some unimportant job, some sort of youth program I believe.

The meme survives to this day within China, where military fans would ironically refer to J-20 as "J-10+10", "J-10 Pro Max", "J-10++" etc etc
Inked71ca-izeysaz3860530_LI.jpg

Lol.
 

Temstar

Junior Member
Registered Member
SFA-J20.jpg
"I also watched that show on CCTV7 back then, I totally believed it and was arguing about it with people on forums"
"You were 'volunteered' to join SFA"
"Oh, I see you're a non-registered member of the SFA"

After the maiden flight of J-20 Zhang Zhaozhong was asked in interview how come his claim of the project being an upgraded J-10 was so far from reality and he said:
I'm just a retired old man, I don't know anything
Then many years later, on his own show, Zhang Zhaozhong had this to say about J-20
As you know, I took part in the initial feasibility study for the J-20 project.

Zhang also famously employed strategic deception to downplay other PLA projects. He claimed J-16 was a "mildly modified J-11BS" which military fans were too eager to apply a new made up serial number to. Even admonishing people saying they should take military watching more seriously and not come up with a new name in their head just because PLAAF decided to change one screw on the plane

He also said 055 was unlike to be more than 10,000 tons since 052D is only 7,000 tons and an increase in displacement of that magnitude will cause all sorts of unforeseen problems and it would be imprudent for PLAN to make such a big leap.

Did I mention he retired from PLAN in 2015 with the rank of rear admiral ;)
 
Last edited:

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Allegedly the "31st Captain of the "Wang Hai Brigade" and as we all know, this brigade is the former 3rd Air Division's 9th Air Regiment, today the PLAAF's 9th Air Brigade at Wuhu flying J-20A. So this seems to be the 9th Brigade's unit badge?

(Image via @空天砺剑 from Weibo)

PLAAF 9. Brigade - Wang Hai Brigade - patch full.jpg
 

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