J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII


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Big duck = J-20, duck is chinese for canard.
Big yellow duck = that one J-20 that flew with yellow primer paint
Little duck = J-10

Overall take according to this rumour:
The first production run of J-20 is powered by AL-31, although this author claims it has been modified somewhat by China which result in some minor performance improvements.
The prototype J-20 in yellow primer paint is in fact a prototype J-20A, powered by two WS-10 of some sort, totalling 14 tons of thrust each. It's not clear if J-20A will have TVC nozzles at this point. Twin WS-10 allows supercruise. In addition this resulted in increase in size of the main weapon bay which allows the J-20A to carry six PL-15. Rumours of a twin seat version is false. The rumours of 4 production lines for J-20 is false, instead they will be built at a new facility which is nearly ready. Once J-10 production ends their production line will also be switched to J-20.

Take this rumour as you will
I think J-10 production will continue
 

Kich

New Member
Registered Member
Maybe I missed the memo but is there a war about to happen between India and China?
Or has the fever going on at that Ladakh thread spread to here as well?:D

Edit: I was joking about the fever thing, but I'm genuinely interested if you all sense something about to explode between the two.
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
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Agreed:
Another argument in favor of 5th Generation fighter aircraft is that In an air superiority role all Air to Air weapons (even the largest ones such as the PL-15) would fit in the weapons bay, and not compromise stealth by being required to be carried externally on hard points. In an air to air role especially with very long range air to air missiles a stealth fighter like the J-20 is invincible.
Ground attack role:
Not sure if the F-22 has an intended ground attack role as well but it is believed the ground attack role is reserved for the F-35.
When the first generation stealth planes were used like the F-117 Night Hawk these were not fighters in the true sense but strike aircraft. The small weapons bay limited their ability to carry out long range 400 km + stand off weapons strikes. The first use over Iraq was spectacularly successful but one F-117 was downed over Serbia.
Is a stealth fighter more vulnerable in ground attack mode when it has to come within detection range of ground radar which may be more powerful than airborne radar installed on adversary fighter jets?
There are unconfirmed reports of Israeli F-35s suffering damage from Syrian S-200 systems and crash-landing when returning from missions
over Syria. Israel explains these as "bird hits" .
China seems to following the US pattern by dedicating models of stealth fighters ( J-31, J-20) in specific roles instead of looking to an F-35 type multirole platform.
Interestingly the first likely combat debut of the J-20 is being
debated globally most notably in India. Defense analysts in India (either through ignorance or a deliberate misinformation attempt) are dismissive of J-20 capabilities as being a threat in the local theater ( specifically Ladakh and Tibet).
The argument goes that the J-20 is primarily intended to take out large targets such as tankers, AWAC abd EW aircraft, heavy transports, ships, or basically large targets. This is ideal for coastal defense over flat open ocean devastating an attacking naval force from a distance. In the Western Theater Command environment there are limitations on the J-20s capabilities. Taking on AESA equipped thrust vector capabilities, MAW and EW suite equipped 4++ aircraft (basically Rafale ) in a mountainous environment with radar clutter will be difficult. The Rafale's would be making use of the terrain. with tactics such as "nap of the earth " flying which makes it difficult for PL-15s to hold the radar lock and maneuver in a twisting turning dog fight. Additionally the J-20s maybe at risk from being detected by improved ground radar in a short range environment. A within visual range confrontation is of course impossible.A BVR engagement over a flat plateau (such as Tibet) would end badly for any 4th generation aircraft trying to take on the J-20.
You're saying way too much drawing across far too many disparate sources and incidents and making dubious conclusions and I have no idea what on earth your argument is.

If you're arguing whether a 4+ generation fighter operating at low altitude with EW would be a viable tactic against 5th generation fighters -- well if all else is equal, no. You're giving the 5th generation fighter not only an energy advantage by staying so low but the sensors on the 5th generation fighter will still be able to detect your 4+ generation at relevant ranges -- if the 5th generation fighter's friendly AEW&C hundreds of kms away hasn't already done it for you. This isn't the 1970s anymore.

In that situation the 5th generation fighter wouldn't bother entering a low altitude turning battle but rather just wait until the 4+ generation fighter enters range and exploit its superior energy and sensor/situational awareness position and take it out.
 
Last edited:

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
In that situation the 5th generation fighter wouldn't bother entering a low altitude turning battle but rather just wait until the 4+ generation fighter enters range and exploit its superior energy and sensor/situational awareness position and take it out.
Absolutely! Agree 100%. A 4++ fighter has no chance against a 5th generation fighter which will choose the combat mode to its advantage. Was trying to debunk some propaganda and there is no argument. Was referring to motivated propagandists twisting information on talk shows claiming to be experts. Stealth technology is so recent that most people including myself have imperfect knowledge.
Misrepresentation using animation and graphics on TV shows along with so-called experts the lying propaganda out there is that a 5th generation plane can be defeated by a 4++ plane
 

Bltizo

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Absolutely! Agree 100%. A 4++ fighter has no chance against a 5th generation fighter which will choose the combat mode to its advantage. Was trying to debunk some propaganda and there is no argument. Was referring to motivated propagandists twisting information on talk shows claiming to be experts. Stealth technology is so recent that most people including myself have imperfect knowledge.
Misrepresentation using animation and graphics on TV shows along with so-called experts the lying propaganda out there is that a 5th generation plane can be defeated by a 4++ plane
I mean... who cares. Let them say what they want. It's a waste of our time to debunk their silliness.
 

Errys

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2020-09-26

Recently, the sudden appearance of the sixth-generation fighters of the superpower caused an uproar. Judging from public information, this sixth-generation aircraft is a "penetrating fighter" with a flying wing layout, focusing on full-frequency stealth performance, flying faster and having a longer range. At present, there is no recognized technical standard for the sixth-generation aircraft in the world, so it is very doubtful how powerful this sixth-generation aircraft is suddenly appearing. Moreover, even if the so-called sixth-generation machine verification machine appears, there is still a long way to go before it is actually put into use. As the sixth-generation aircraft may have huge technical advantages, military fans have begun to worry whether the progress of the domestic-made sixth-generation aircraft will be too slow. In fact, in accordance with the convention of "production generation, trial production generation, pre-research generation and exploration generation", the development of China's sixth-generation aircraft has already begun, and it may be more powerful.

According to reports, as early as 2019, the "Future Aircraft Collaborative Innovation Center" of Northwestern Polytechnical University, a top domestic aerospace university, made it clear that it had come up with eight sixth-generation aircraft design schemes and conducted low-altitude flight technology verification for the four schemes. And formed an important influence in the country. The publicity board issued by the university pointed out that this industry-university-research model has cultivated a large number of leading talents for the Chinese aviation industry, including the J-20 chief engineer, chief designer and field commander. The dean is an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, absolutely not It's a joke.
What the sixth-generation opportunity in China looks like is still a mystery, but we can still see a general direction of efforts from the papers published by the J-20 chief engineer and related verification technologies developed by the country. A paper published by the J-20 chief engineer believes that the next generation of fighter jets will pay more attention to information superiority and adopt a large number of artificial intelligence technologies to make fighter control easier; it has broadband and wide-spectrum stealth performance and can penetrate modern air defense systems; The laser weapon near-defense weapon system has the ability to defend against terminal hard killers; the sixth-generation aircraft will focus on air combat beyond visual range, further highlighting the importance of information perception capabilities, and can form an information advantage for existing fighters. The article pointed out that the next-generation fighter jets have greater range, ammunition carrying capacity, and flight speed, which may blur the boundaries between fighters and bombers, requiring penetration and attack operations to be completed in high-risk environments. Therefore, China's sixth-generation aircraft may not meet any clear standards, or it may be a penetrating air superiority fighter.

It can be seen that "penetrating air superiority fighters" may be the common endeavour of all major countries, but the technical content is graded. Although the sixth-generation aircraft being developed by the superpowers has better stealth performance and long range, it does not have a particularly huge technological advancement compared to the fifth-generation aircraft. On the contrary, China recently announced that it has successfully developed a combined power engine that allows people to see the future development direction of China's sixth-generation aircraft-a hypersonic stealth fighter that can freely enter and exit the space and atmosphere.

If China's sixth-generation aircraft is a "penetrating air-control fighter" equipped with combined-engine maneuvering, its most powerful feature is that it can freely enter and exit the atmosphere to perform operations, flying at speeds exceeding Mach 6, and having a large combat radius. Fighters with hypersonic flight capabilities will cause existing missile weapons to become invalid due to their slow speed. Combined with broadband stealth performance, they can be undetectable by the existing air defense network and prevent air defense missiles from being effectively blocked. They are capable of performing dimensionality reduction attacks on fifth-generation aircraft. Ability to carry out important target strike missions deep behind enemy lines.
When will China's sixth-generation opportunities appear? The aviation industry said in an article on September 15: "We will achieve the strategic goal of contemporaneous rivalry and leading innovation by 2025-2035." In other words, China's sixth-generation aircraft has the combat capability to compete with the world's most advanced similar models. , And will be unveiled in 2035 at the latest. The J-20 Deputy Chief Commander also stated on the program that the sixth-generation aircraft will come out before 2035. It will be the same as the J-20 with some trade-offs and prominence, and will not be exactly the same as foreign fighters.

Judging from various information, the development of China's sixth-generation aircraft is not behind, but will complete the development task at its own pace. The superpower has only built a test and verification aircraft with a flying wing layout, while a Chinese university has conducted low-altitude flight verification for four sixth-generation aircraft programs. China has also taken the lead in the development of the combined engine required for the sixth-generation aircraft, indicating that the progress of the project is not behind. In comparison, the sixth-generation aircraft of the superpower looks more like a strategic flicker, and China has the opportunity to overtake corners in the future.
 

yuxiaochen

Junior Member
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2020-09-26

Recently, the sudden appearance of the sixth-generation fighters of the superpower caused an uproar. Judging from public information, this sixth-generation aircraft is a "penetrating fighter" with a flying wing layout, focusing on full-frequency stealth performance, flying faster and having a longer range. At present, there is no recognized technical standard for the sixth-generation aircraft in the world, so it is very doubtful how powerful this sixth-generation aircraft is suddenly appearing. Moreover, even if the so-called sixth-generation machine verification machine appears, there is still a long way to go before it is actually put into use. As the sixth-generation aircraft may have huge technical advantages, military fans have begun to worry whether the progress of the domestic-made sixth-generation aircraft will be too slow. In fact, in accordance with the convention of "production generation, trial production generation, pre-research generation and exploration generation", the development of China's sixth-generation aircraft has already begun, and it may be more powerful.

According to reports, as early as 2019, the "Future Aircraft Collaborative Innovation Center" of Northwestern Polytechnical University, a top domestic aerospace university, made it clear that it had come up with eight sixth-generation aircraft design schemes and conducted low-altitude flight technology verification for the four schemes. And formed an important influence in the country. The publicity board issued by the university pointed out that this industry-university-research model has cultivated a large number of leading talents for the Chinese aviation industry, including the J-20 chief engineer, chief designer and field commander. The dean is an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, absolutely not It's a joke.
What the sixth-generation opportunity in China looks like is still a mystery, but we can still see a general direction of efforts from the papers published by the J-20 chief engineer and related verification technologies developed by the country. A paper published by the J-20 chief engineer believes that the next generation of fighter jets will pay more attention to information superiority and adopt a large number of artificial intelligence technologies to make fighter control easier; it has broadband and wide-spectrum stealth performance and can penetrate modern air defense systems; The laser weapon near-defense weapon system has the ability to defend against terminal hard killers; the sixth-generation aircraft will focus on air combat beyond visual range, further highlighting the importance of information perception capabilities, and can form an information advantage for existing fighters. The article pointed out that the next-generation fighter jets have greater range, ammunition carrying capacity, and flight speed, which may blur the boundaries between fighters and bombers, requiring penetration and attack operations to be completed in high-risk environments. Therefore, China's sixth-generation aircraft may not meet any clear standards, or it may be a penetrating air superiority fighter.

It can be seen that "penetrating air superiority fighters" may be the common endeavour of all major countries, but the technical content is graded. Although the sixth-generation aircraft being developed by the superpowers has better stealth performance and long range, it does not have a particularly huge technological advancement compared to the fifth-generation aircraft. On the contrary, China recently announced that it has successfully developed a combined power engine that allows people to see the future development direction of China's sixth-generation aircraft-a hypersonic stealth fighter that can freely enter and exit the space and atmosphere.

If China's sixth-generation aircraft is a "penetrating air-control fighter" equipped with combined-engine maneuvering, its most powerful feature is that it can freely enter and exit the atmosphere to perform operations, flying at speeds exceeding Mach 6, and having a large combat radius. Fighters with hypersonic flight capabilities will cause existing missile weapons to become invalid due to their slow speed. Combined with broadband stealth performance, they can be undetectable by the existing air defense network and prevent air defense missiles from being effectively blocked. They are capable of performing dimensionality reduction attacks on fifth-generation aircraft. Ability to carry out important target strike missions deep behind enemy lines.
When will China's sixth-generation opportunities appear? The aviation industry said in an article on September 15: "We will achieve the strategic goal of contemporaneous rivalry and leading innovation by 2025-2035." In other words, China's sixth-generation aircraft has the combat capability to compete with the world's most advanced similar models. , And will be unveiled in 2035 at the latest. The J-20 Deputy Chief Commander also stated on the program that the sixth-generation aircraft will come out before 2035. It will be the same as the J-20 with some trade-offs and prominence, and will not be exactly the same as foreign fighters.

Judging from various information, the development of China's sixth-generation aircraft is not behind, but will complete the development task at its own pace. The superpower has only built a test and verification aircraft with a flying wing layout, while a Chinese university has conducted low-altitude flight verification for four sixth-generation aircraft programs. China has also taken the lead in the development of the combined engine required for the sixth-generation aircraft, indicating that the progress of the project is not behind. In comparison, the sixth-generation aircraft of the superpower looks more like a strategic flicker, and China has the opportunity to overtake corners in the future.
1,no author given. 2, source of information not given. 3, this is a thread about J-20 the fifth generation fighter, not sixth gen.
 

silentlurker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Who is saying this? Bold lettering is mine.

These analysts are decades late. There is something called Look Down Shoot Down or LDSD in Pulse Doopler mode that is meant to track targets flying low. In addition there is something called MTI or Moving Target Indicator that discriminates moving target from ground, sea or surface clutter. The fact that the Rafale is a flying object and moving very fast with an altitude that separates it from the ground, aids in the way these modes operate, in contrast to something that is only moving 30 kph an hour on the ground or sea and sticking on it.

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Lookdown shootdown modes improve targeting aircraft with a non-sky backdrop, but there still could be situations where mountains physically block line of sight. It would depend on local terrain and how high both planes are flying.
 

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