J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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Bltizo

Moderator
Staff member
Regarding the "Su-30MKI tracking J-20 thing" -- from some Indian military followers, the story seems to be unreliable and journalistic aggrandization


More importantly, even if J-20 is claimed to be detected by a radar by XYZ -- remember that the aircraft usually has a Luneberg lens on to exaggrexag it's RCS
 

plawolf

Brigadier
Anti-stealth radars are huge and cannot provide effective targeting data because of their operating principles.

That means anti-stealth radars will only ever be part of a counter stealth network, and cannot counter stealth targets by themselves. And as with any system, the added layers on the kill chain adds delays and potential points of failure.

Anti-stealth radars are best against enemy stealth bombers that are basically sitting ducks if an enemy fighter can get close enough to eyeball it.

It is far less effective against stealth fighters that can fight back. So even if the anti-stealth radar works perfectly, it’s still a bust if the legacy fighters you vectored in on the enemy stealth cannot get weapons lock with their onboard radars before getting taken out by the enemy stealths at BVR.

No matter how well an anti-stealth radar works, these fundamental limitations cannot be overcome without a system that works on a whole new set of underlying physics, and so could be made small enough to be mounted on fighters or missiles and are accurate enough to give weapons solutions. So unless and until that happens, stealth still has a significant advantage, which is why China is developing the J20 and other stealth assets.

There is currently not enough data to assess how effective Chinese anti-stealth radars work.

The true test will be to see if there is any marked change in funding and fielding of anti-stealth radars by the Chinese going forwards, now they have an actual stealth fighter to test those systems against. But we are unlikely to get even that kind of data for years if ever.
 
Anti-stealth radars are huge and cannot provide effective targeting data because of their operating principles.

That means anti-stealth radars will only ever be part of a counter stealth network, and cannot counter stealth targets by themselves. And as with any system, the added layers on the kill chain adds delays and potential points of failure.

Anti-stealth radars are best against enemy stealth bombers that are basically sitting ducks if an enemy fighter can get close enough to eyeball it.

It is far less effective against stealth fighters that can fight back. So even if the anti-stealth radar works perfectly, it’s still a bust if the legacy fighters you vectored in on the enemy stealth cannot get weapons lock with their onboard radars before getting taken out by the enemy stealths at BVR.

No matter how well an anti-stealth radar works, these fundamental limitations cannot be overcome without a system that works on a whole new set of underlying physics, and so could be made small enough to be mounted on fighters or missiles and are accurate enough to give weapons solutions. So unless and until that happens, stealth still has a significant advantage, which is why China is developing the J20 and other stealth assets.

There is currently not enough data to assess how effective Chinese anti-stealth radars work.

The true test will be to see if there is any marked change in funding and fielding of anti-stealth radars by the Chinese going forwards, now they have an actual stealth fighter to test those systems against. But we are unlikely to get even that kind of data for years if ever.
Exactly Wolfie, nice post!
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Since there's apparently some confusion (1, 2) about what was said in India regarding the J-20, I thought I'd clear it up (to the best of my ability).

Head of the Indian Air Force, ACM Dhanoa, mentioned it in late March. This is probably the source of most of the discussion on this thread, specifically the Su-30 part.
Since the Su-30 remark wasn't in English, you can
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the translation
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.

Dhanoa again spoke about the J-20 in late April. As far as I know, this was less reported. From 1:07:54.

There is also this
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with remarks attributed to a senior officer.

Hopefully this clarifies most things related to who said what in this episode.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Since there's apparently some confusion (1, 2) about what was said in India regarding the J-20, I thought I'd clear it up (to the best of my ability).

Head of the Indian Air Force, ACM Dhanoa, mentioned it in late March. This is probably the source of most of the discussion on this thread, specifically the Su-30 part.
Since the Su-30 remark wasn't in English, you can
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the translation
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Dhanoa again spoke about the J-20 in late April. As far as I know, this was less reported. From 1:07:54.

There is also this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with remarks attributed to a senior officer.

Hopefully this clarifies most things related to who said what in this episode.
Thanks for digging that up. So, if Arihant's translation is faithful, then Air Chief Dhanoa said something to the effect of "the J-20 isn't that stealthy; the Su-30MKI can track it from some kilometers away". Unfortunately for the press, even if the ACM wasn't talking out of his behind, this statement doesn't tell us anything new.

Stealth aircraft can all be tracked and detected if the opponent's radar is close enough; even the KLJ-7A can track the F-22 from "some kilometers" away. The distinction, however, comes when the J-20 or a J-10C (arguably the "stealthiest" non-5th-generation airframe in PLAAF service) are able to track, detect, & engage an enemy before the latter can get in detection range of the former. In other words, the ACM's words are essentially assuaging rhetoric more than anything else.

Even with the credentials, ACM Dhanoa's words are to be taken with a massive heap of salt if history is anything to go by. Moreover, the fact that (1) the J-20s had never been operationally deployed to the Sino-Indian border regions and (2) J-20s always carry Luneburg lens when in flight make wonder if the entire statement was outright false, as it would be essentially impossible for the IAF to obtain RCS values of a clean J-20 given the level of OPSEC in China.
 

Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
The IDRW article has been making rounds on Chinese forums now. It is amazing the amount of attention what is essentially a speculative tabloid article is getting there.
Well there is nothing like a good old nationalist rhetoric to get people fired up right ?
 

plawolf

Brigadier
I think all this Indian fantasising about Su30s being able to detect J20s is far more to do with Indian current domestic politics than any actually operational insight.

The biggest recent development in India is the IAF pulling the plug on the PAKFA (or at least making a show of doing so), that would leave the Su30 pretty much the best the IAF could field against the PLAAF’s J20s until the arrivals of Rafales (its debatable if it would still be the strongest asset even after the arrival of the Rafales). Thus, is it any wonder the IAF is suddenly poop-pooping the J20?

If not, the obvious question of what they plan to field against J20s without the PAKFA would be hard to answer.
 
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