J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[latenlazy]

If this photo is real, looks like a WS-10 is tested on J-20.

Old photo with a recolour, and those are Al-31s.

 

[Blitzo]

J-20 2001 and 2002 do not have those windows (they're flat at the chin). What you see in the current model is most likely a protective cover, as there were other pictures showing the window exposed.

2001 and 2002 did not have any EO IRSTs, real or stand in.

There were a number of 201X prototypes which initially had grey EO IRSTs as well, before they were replaced with EO IRSTs that looked functional.

I have a feeling that these LRIP jets might be using EO IRST stand ins.

 

[plawolf]

If it was just the odd one or two LRIP birds with grey domes and the rest sporting the transparent ones previously seen on the earlier prototypes, then I would agree maybe they rush the last few out the factory door to be ready for the big parade fly by. But the fact that all the LRIP birds I can think of are sporting these grey IRST domes would tip the balance of probablies to suggest these are a newer model rather than mere covers for holes where IRSTs should go.

A non-transparent window in the human normal visual sprectrem does not mean it is also non-transparent in IR and thermal wavelengths.

There are missiles with Zinc Sulfide (iirc) seeker windows (the PL8 is a classic example) that are opec to the human eye, but which are more sensitive to IR signatures than seeker windows made from fully transparent materials.

That greyish colour could similarly be from a cooling gas/liquid that will significantly improve the sensitivity of the IRST.

 

[Blitzo]

If it was just the odd one or two LRIP birds with grey domes and the rest sporting the transparent ones previously seen on the earlier prototypes, then I would agree maybe they rush the last few out the factory door to be ready for the big parade fly by. But the fact that all the LRIP birds I can think of are sporting these grey IRST domes would tip the balance of probablies to suggest these are a newer model rather than mere covers for holes where IRSTs should go.

A non-transparent window in the human normal visual sprectrem does not mean it is also non-transparent in IR and thermal wavelengths.

There are missiles with Zinc Sulfide (iirc) seeker windows (the PL8 is a classic example) that are opec to the human eye, but which are more sensitive to IR signatures than seeker windows made from fully transparent materials.

That greyish colour could similarly be from a cooling gas/liquid that will significantly improve the sensitivity of the IRST.

I would want to agree with you, but OTOH, what about the possibility that these LRIP models for some reason are simply yet to be equipped with a functional EO IRST?


Either way, it should be obvious in a couple of years once J-20 passes the LRIP stage, to see whether those serial airframes also have the same grey EO IRST. If they all do, then it would suggest the current J-20 LRIPs we see are using some kind of new EO IRST cover that is non-transparent. But if they use transparent EO IRST covers like what we've seen on past J-20s, then it would suggest the current J-20 LRIPs are indeed using stand ins.

 

[plawolf]

I would want to agree with you, but OTOH, what about the possibility that these LRIP models for some reason are simply yet to be equipped with a functional EO IRST?

Well it's certainly a possibly that cannot be categorically ruled out, but seems unlikely given that all the LRIP birds have grey IRSTs.

If there was a production bottleneck, or even major issue with the planned IRST, you would expect at least some of the LRIP birds to have functional IRSTs, or they would all have swopped in a temporary functional stand-in units.

It would be unprecedented, as far as I am aware, for the PLAAF to accept equipment that are missing key components and functionality.

They have been willing to accept functional stand-ins, as the J20's AL31s prove. And if the first or latest LRIP birds had transparent windows, they they clearly either rushed the first or last batches out.

But for them all to lack clear windows shifts the balance of probabilities to the grey windowed covers being something new and functional in my view.

As you say, time will easily show us who is correct.

 

[Blitzo]

Well it's certainly a possibly that cannot be categorically ruled out, but seems unlikely given that all the LRIP birds have grey IRSTs.

I'd say it's a bit more possible than merely "cannot be categorically ruled out". I'd almost call it 50/50 at this point.

I mean, it's literally an issue of either LRIP birds all have grey functional IRSTs or LRIP birds all have IRST stand ins (aka no functional IRSTs)

If there was a production bottleneck, or even major issue with the planned IRST, you would expect at least some of the LRIP birds to have functional IRSTs, or they would all have swopped in a temporary functional stand-in units.

It would be unprecedented, as far as I am aware, for the PLAAF to accept equipment that are missing key components and functionality.

They have been willing to accept functional stand-ins, as the J20's AL31s prove. And if the first or latest LRIP birds had transparent windows, they they clearly either rushed the first or last batches out.

But for them all to lack clear windows shifts the balance of probabilities to the grey windowed covers being something new and functional in my view.

Hmm I think it isn't too fantastical an idea for there to be some sort of bottleneck in either its production or procurement that makes the Air Force willing to induct an initial number of LRIP birds without functional IRSTs... before later receiving possible future LRIP birds with functional IRSTs and/or possibly also having these initial IRST-less birds eventually getting them replaced by functional IRSTs for their stand ins.

If we assume that the other major subsystems on LRIP J-20s are ready, and for argument's sake if we consider there is some sort of bottleneck with the IRSTs for those LRIP birds, IMO it wouldn't make sense for the Air Force to delay procuring LRIP J-20s merely because of an IRST delay, but they would instead first induct the LRIP J-20s and start learning from them with the subsystems that are ready.

As you say, time will easily show us who is correct.

Yeah, I hope that time will tell us that J-20s are using some kind of new grey cover for their IRSTs, but at the moment for me it's a bit 50/50 considering the very plausible alternative.

 

[Deino]

@Bltizo ... at the PDF our "special friend" - Yes, the one with the hyper-powerful "+210kN WS-15 from day-one" theory has another brilliant idea:

He found an article where a certain blogger proposes the J-20 is using Virtual Reality or Augmented Reality technologies for its HMD. He also explores the possibility that J-20 is able to read the pilot's mind to carry out his commands, in addition, with inputs from his hands.


Deino

 

[Inst]

What's underlying the 10:0 claim for the J-20? That's implying that the J-20 can carry 2 WVR missiles and 6 BVR missiles as a baseline, with 2 additional WVR or BVR missiles as well. See the F-22 and F-35 figures: they supposedly have a 8:1 and 4:1 ratio respectively when pitted against 4th (US) generation aircraft. That goes into my theory: the J-20 can, with LOAL missiles and the outside gird removed, carry 4 WVR missiles in its side bays. Alternately, the figures came from jamming 8 intermediate range WVR missiles into the main bays.

 

[vesicles]

What's underlying the 10:0 claim for the J-20? That's implying that the J-20 can carry 2 WVR missiles and 6 BVR missiles as a baseline, with 2 additional WVR or BVR missiles as well. See the F-22 and F-35 figures: they supposedly have a 8:1 and 4:1 ratio respectively when pitted against 4th (US) generation aircraft. That goes into my theory: the J-20 can, with LOAL missiles and the outside gird removed, carry 4 WVR missiles in its side bays. Alternately, the figures came from jamming 8 intermediate range WVR missiles into the main bays.

I think the 10:0 thing simply means the J-20 faced off against their other advanced fighters 10 times and won every engagement. We have no clue whether that happened in one sitting or in multiple engagements. We don't even know if the figure is authentic...

 

[latenlazy]

What's underlying the 10:0 claim for the J-20? That's implying that the J-20 can carry 2 WVR missiles and 6 BVR missiles as a baseline, with 2 additional WVR or BVR missiles as well. See the F-22 and F-35 figures: they supposedly have a 8:1 and 4:1 ratio respectively when pitted against 4th (US) generation aircraft. That goes into my theory: the J-20 can, with LOAL missiles and the outside gird removed, carry 4 WVR missiles in its side bays. Alternately, the figures came from jamming 8 intermediate range WVR missiles into the main bays.

Or it also got kills with its gun.