J-10 Thread IV

[by78]

My discussion with Deino is pretty civil and there is no question on the subject of disrespect here. He is a pretty open-minded chappie. I have seen him admitting his oversight and error in the past with other members but what surprises me is his willingness to pursue and seek the truth as others see it. I am pretty sure my comment will lead him to new angle and observation.

Conversely your comment surprised me as you as a moderstor failed to understand the concept and principle of a forum which is to share, exchange IDEAS and agree to disagree. You have yet to earn your stripe with me. RESPECT is be earn and not demand.

As for your point on Xian Refurbishing Plant - noted.
Unfortunately I will similarly take it with a pinch of salt because IMO they are as valid as mine. All based on hearsay, speculation from the sometime overly enthusiastic Chinese bloggers and mainly guesswork. That is unless you are an inner part of the isoteric circle which apparently you are not.

Cheer! Enjoy the fun of a new day.

Welcome to the forum! We can all use more members who are proficient in Chinese.

 

[by78]

I think you should pay Deino some respect, who has followed Chinese aviation for a long time and have long been a great observer/source of everything PLAAF related.

I'm not sure where you got the refurbished stuff from, but I have not seen it. But yes, if there is problems with engine, they will be sent to MRO plant in Chengdu for overhauling and repairs. That's the point of having such a large domestic AL-31 plant. But there is no indication that they are sent to Chengdu first before they were ever installed on J-10B.

How did you interpret Micron's exchange with Deino as disrespectful? What specific words or parts were unbecoming?

I'm asking because we can probably all use a refresher on proper forum behavior.

 

[Deino]

My discussion with Deino is pretty civil and there is no question on the subject of disrespect here. He is a pretty open-minded chappie. I have seen him admitting his oversight and error in the past with other members but what surprises me is his willingness to pursue and seek the truth as others see it. I am pretty sure my comment will lead him to new angle and observation......

Thanks and indeed it was surely not taken as an offensive.

However even I read quite carefully what You posted, it even more made me curious:

...
2. According to what I read from netizens discussion in China, many of them quoting insiders sources - Initially Chengdu did installed brand new AL-31FN Mk-III to their brand new J10B. However they changed their mind after a brand new J10B crash after the engine stalled in midair.
3. If one observed closely, these AL-31FN engines are not new one but refurbished engine.
....

Especially these two points in fact:

to 2: Actually I never read these reports and would be interested in a source.

to 3: here even more and I think I can say I'm truly one who "observes very closely" each and every new J-10B/C coming off the factory ... but so far I'm not able to distinguish a new AL-31FN from a AL-31FN series 3 and even more from a maybe refurbished one. So what's Your proof that these are refurbished ?

All the best,
Deino

 

[tphuang]

My discussion with Deino is pretty civil and there is no question on the subject of disrespect here. He is a pretty open-minded chappie. I have seen him admitting his oversight and error in the past with other members but what surprises me is his willingness to pursue and seek the truth as others see it. I am pretty sure my comment will lead him to new angle and observation.

Conversely your comment surprised me as you as a moderstor failed to understand the concept and principle of a forum which is to share, exchange IDEAS and agree to disagree. You have yet to earn your stripe with me. RESPECT is be earn and not demand.

As for your point on Xian Refurbishing Plant - noted.
Unfortunately I will similarly take it with a pinch of salt because IMO they are as valid as mine. All based on hearsay, speculation from the sometime overly enthusiastic Chinese bloggers and mainly guesswork. That is unless you are an inner part of the isoteric circle which apparently you are not.

Cheer! Enjoy the fun of a new day.

your comment
"So until China released these information which are in fact quite old by then, one can continue the western method of denial until one verified the source but how?

Until lately, China never even confirmed the existence of a second AC nor its construction."

strikes me as something where you are labelling Deino as someone who denies Chinese sources and is ignorant of valuable info that we can get from there when Deino has been very open minded. Please be careful to respect senior members on this board.

And moderators do get the final say here on SDF. And you would be well advised to respect the decisions of moderatorr.

 

[Blackstone]

You have strike the right chord with me as I am pretty perplexed and confused myself as to why a Super Moderator choose to interject and abuse his position to threaten another member in a civil discussion between two members just because of his own misunderstanding and parochial perception of the word DISRESPECT.

I disagree a super moderator unfairly interjected and abused his position. SDF draws sharper lines on forum policing as policy, and tphunang's moderation is about the same as other mods I've seen and experienced.

 

[Micron]

Thanks and indeed it was surely not taken as an offensive.

However even I read quite carefully what You posted, it even more made me curious:



Especially these two points in fact:

to 2: Actually I never read these reports and would be interested in a source.

to 3: here even more and I think I can say I'm truly one who "observes very closely" each and every new J-10B/C coming off the factory ... but so far I'm not able to distinguish a new AL-31FN from a AL-31FN series 3 and even more from a maybe refurbished one. So what's Your proof that these are refurbished ?

All the best,
Deino

These were points I picked up from public discussions among netizens in China's blogs, some who claimed they have exclusive insiders information as they have relative working there.

But to me, it just points to direction in our search for the real truth. Like the MH370, a deep mystery.

It is exciting, ain't it? I will communicate with you in other time as I really have to leave.

Cheers!

 

[Brumby]

Your explanation is incoherent and total illogical to many of us.


Are you demanding RESPECT from me?


Who is challenging your role or who can challenge your position ( if you choose to abuse it) but now I pretty sure many including myself are beginning to question your so-called absolute right to gag members or their opinions?


Are you sure you are not abusing your position? This is an open-forum and I have certainly the right to express my views and opinions like yourself but why are you threatening me out of nowhere?


We will respect the opinions (opinions!) of all members here esp. the senior one... only if they can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are right.

Shared soemthing with you. When I first posted a blurry image of China own indigenous VDS which I found from one of China chat group many years ago in another forum years ago, I was insulted and abused by trolls there with some of them calling me a commie.


Today I am vindicated as many China warships are equipped with the same blurry one which I posted. Time will be my best witness.

And seriously I don't give a damn what they say.


That is what every China Military Watchers will tells you.


You can have and entitle to your own opinion.


LISTEN! Don't gag others including mine.

My goodness. Your sense of arrogance and self worth clearly takes the prize not seen on this forum for as long as I have been posting here. Firstly my apologies to TP and Deino for interjecting but since implicit in the poster’s statement that the“explanation is incoherent and totally illogical to many of us” does invite a response because it doesn’t represent the view at least to me. I question whether you understand the meaning of logic, coherency and beyond any reasonable doubt as you liberally used but failed those meaning in your own arguments.

I am not someone who makes accusation without foundation. I would now take the trouble to justify my statement against the arguments you have used. First off the block, logic. This what you said.

Yes. Likewise IMO we can be both right and wrong.


1. Plant 5719 aka Xian Engine Refurbishment and overhaul Center is located in Chengdu. That is what the confusion arised from.

2. According to what I read from netizens discussion in China, many of them quoting insiders sources - Initially Chengdu did installed brand new AL-31FN Mk-III to their brand new J10B. However they changed their mind after a brand new J10B crash after the engine stalled in midair.

3. If one observed closely, these AL-31FN engines are not new one but refurbished engine.

4. It was alleged in China's blogs, Chinese pilots preferred their homegrown WS-10A & B series engines to AL-31FN as they claimed they are more powerful and certainly more reliable.

5. From what I read and understand, all AL-31F are maintain and upgraded by this plant headed by a female chief.

You are saying your source is based on rumours from the internet and include 4 and 5 (themselves irrelevant to subject) as if to give credence to your assertion. Claims are simply that if there are no corroborative sources. Basic reasoning (logic) in assessing the veracity of information doesn’t go out the window because of the nature of the beast. They are rumours no matter your degree of belief. Btw in basic reasoning, the law of excluded middle states that both cannot be right or wrong at the same time. It is simple logic.


Secondly, on your statement of coherency. You said :

China aviation programs esp. those related to the military are shroud in secrecy.


Foreign military experts, enthusiasts like ourselves are all dependent on rumors and perhaps what are described as fanboy arts to solve the remaining puzzle. Examples can be found in the past - J10A, J-10B and J-20 were are presented as fanboy arts until one discovered that some of them were depicted so correctly and accurately. This is why,there is a huge following both inside and outside China. It is quite fun.


So until China released these information which are in fact quite old by then, one can continue the western method of denial until one verified the source but how?


Until lately, China never even confirmed the existence of a second AC nor its construction.

The nature of Chinese secrecy in military matters doesn’t elevate rumours as substitute for or/as facts. One can throw enough mud on the wall and eventually some will stick. It is incoherent to say that just because some fanboy arts turn up to reflect eventual programs don’t make fanboi arts any more credible as source. All dogs are mammal doesn’t make all mammals as dogs.

Thirdly, you advocated the beyond reasonable doubt test on expression of opinion. Your statement :

We will respect the opinions (opinions!) of all members here esp. the senior one... only if they can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are right.

I will let you defend such a statement but based on your expressed opinion and the basis of it I would like to see how rumours from the internet offers proof as beyond reasonable doubt. Do you actually understand the meaning of “beyond reasonable doubt” before invoking it?

Finally the most troubling aspect of your comment is in the manner you have attempted to portray TP as a person and his sense of fairness in moderating. TP is one of the most unassuming moderator, his tone and language is very low key and never have I seen any issue in abusing his authority in moderation. You on the other hand being new to this forum is exhibiting a sense of self worth that remains to be proven. You are insinuating that TP is behaving like Kin Jong-Un as per your post :

You have strike the right chord with me as I am pretty perplexed and confused myself as to why a Super Moderator choose to interject and abuse his position to threaten another member in a civil discussion between two members just because of his own misunderstanding and parochial perception of the word DISRESPECT.

What does all this means?


Is this super moderator now referring to himself and demanding that members bestow their RESPECT on him or kowtow to him like the North Korean "Kim Jong-un"?

You are implicitly suggesting that TP is behaving like Kim Jun-Un. You wish to talk of fairness but you are making accusation that TP is abusing his position. Where is that “beyond reasonable doubt” test you talk of? You associate TP’s behaviour as that of Kim Jun-Un. That is simply unwarranted and unreasonable portrayal. Btw, Kin Jun-un does not care about respect just submission. Those who don’t get thrown to the dogs.

 

[antiterror13]

I didn't see Micron was being disrespectful to Deino

 

[Brumby]

I didn't see Micron was being disrespectful to Deino

This is no longer the issue because Deino himself acknowledge no offence with Micron's comments. The problem IMO is with Micron's tirade against TP's integrity as a moderator and person.

 

[antiterror13]

hmmm, ok. Micron should have contacted TP in private, if he was not happy with him ... not in public space ... and it should be fine