J-10 Thread IV


Gloire_bb

Senior Member
Registered Member
Oh lord, makes me appreciate PLAAF's low visibility grey camo even more. Is there any tactical value to this kind of camo at this day and age? Harder to spot from air when doing low level penetration over jungle?
First and foremost, it matters when they're dispersed on the ground.
Air visibility is a second concern, thou a significant one against the ground clutter in WVR.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
I dont' think we've ever had definitive rumours about the spool up time, and it all seems to be perpetuation/bouncing off from the early 2010s which I recall weren't properly substantiated. As others have said, if we aren't confident that it's legit, we probably shouldnt' be repeating it.
If that is true then that is indeed a problem for a naval aircraft. The F-14 also had problems with engine spool up time and engine stalls. The US Navy was quite glad when that engine was replaced with the GE engine. Problems were bad enough it was a plot point in the original Top Gun movie from the 1980s.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I dont' think we've ever had definitive rumours about the spool up time, and it all seems to be perpetuation/bouncing off from the early 2010s which I recall weren't properly substantiated. As others have said, if we aren't confident that it's legit, we probably shouldnt' be repeating it.
I would have to dig the archives for the original sources but as I recall once we got the tell all on the WS-10’s development history spool up time issues *were* cited, but that was for the initial versions, and resolving that amongst a host of other issues was responsible for why adoption ended up being a few years later than planned. The engine has undergone so many revisions and updates now that I’m not sure anything we knew about the performance of the engine from its early days really applies to today.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If that is true then that is indeed a problem for a naval aircraft. The F-14 also had problems with engine spool up time and engine stalls. The US Navy was quite glad when that engine was replaced with the GE engine. Problems were bad enough it was a plot point in the original Top Gun movie from the 1980s.

Like I said, this rumour is ancient, and we never really had it properly substantiated or contextualised.

That is why I'm not a huge fan of resurrecting it willy nilly, because it doesn't actually help the conversation.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Like I said, this rumour is ancient, and we never really had it properly substantiated or contextualised.

That is why I'm not a huge fan of resurrecting it willy nilly, because it doesn't actually help the conversation.
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So this was the original source for a lot of the details we’ve been told about the development history of the WS-10. No mention of the spool up time issue, but there is mention of stalling under certain flight conditions. And apparently there were as many as 20,000 other issues according to this account, so it’s not improbable that there may have been a spool up time issue as well, especially since a lot of the issues with the Taihang seemed to involve very poor pairing between the fan and compressor design. In fact I suspect what the “spool up time” issue really was, when considering the particular issue of the fan and compressor stages not working well together, is that if the engine stalled from something like the fan choking flow to the compressor, the same conditions that led to the stall probably also led to unreliable or delayed recovery of thrust, which would then manifest as an inability for the engine to readily to spool back up.

At least according to this account though these were problems encountered in the very early days of the engine’s production, and the issues should be more or less resolved by now given the kinds of revisions and updates as laid out in the piece.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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So this was the original source for a lot of the details we’ve been told about the development history of the WS-10. No mention of the spool up time issue, but there is mention of stalling under certain flight conditions. And apparently there were as many as 20,000 other issues according to this account, so it’s not improbable that there may have been a spool up time issue as well, especially since a lot of the issues with the Taihang seemed to involve very poor pairing between the fan and compressor design. In fact I suspect what the “spool up time” issue really was, when considering the particular issue of the fan and compressor stages not working well together, is that if the engine stalled from something like the fan choking flow to the compressor, the same conditions that led to the stall probably also led to unreliable or delayed recovery of thrust, which would then manifest as an inability for the engine to readily to spool back up.

At least according to this account though these were problems encountered in the very early days of the engine’s production, and the issues should be more or less resolved by now given the kinds of revisions and updates as laid out in the piece.


Thanks a lot for finding the original source
 

minusone

Junior Member
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So this was the original source for a lot of the details we’ve been told about the development history of the WS-10. No mention of the spool up time issue, but there is mention of stalling under certain flight conditions. And apparently there were as many as 20,000 other issues according to this account, so it’s not improbable that there may have been a spool up time issue as well, especially since a lot of the issues with the Taihang seemed to involve very poor pairing between the fan and compressor design. In fact I suspect what the “spool up time” issue really was, when considering the particular issue of the fan and compressor stages not working well together, is that if the engine stalled from something like the fan choking flow to the compressor, the same conditions that led to the stall probably also led to unreliable or delayed recovery of thrust, which would then manifest as an inability for the engine to readily to spool back up.

At least according to this account though these were problems encountered in the very early days of the engine’s production, and the issues should be more or less resolved by now given the kinds of revisions and updates as laid out in the piece.

this was referring to ws-10A no?
 

minusone

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding ws-10 development path, that article up there only explained the struggle.

There's a summary of the official published articles from this link, and the author seems to know someone from AVIC to reconfirm some of the inferences about ws-10.

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Basically, there was one published article that showed data depicting WS-10A has even better high altitude and high speed performances than AL-31, which explained why AVIC claim j20 can supercruise despite without equipping the low BPR WS-15.
Other vital information:
-WS-10B (~144kN)
-WS-10C (> 144kN)

And the insider from AVIC cleared the assertion that ws-10 is copy of Al31 or F110 etc, claiming that it is harder to reverse engineer the turbofan engine, than starting from scratch. Their 40 years of struggle is a testament to this.

The slow equip of ws-10 to J15 could well be modification imposed to withstand the high saline working environment.
 

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