Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.


supersnoop

Senior Member
Registered Member
And India understands.
So many quid pro quo orders from India to US - Howitzers, Attack heli, UCAV, Helicopters etc.

The thing is, India isn't insisting on the usual Transfer of Technology condition while placing the orders. I didn't know only Russia had the obligation to consider transferring technology. Amusing.
If India did demand such things from the US, they can get it. Lockheed was willing to give them the whole F-16 assembly line.
However it's meaningless because the capability in India isn't there. Hard to get to that level too.
You can see these issues with Rafale...
Look at Su-30MKI, decades later and they still rely on Russia for parts.

I think a lot of the "Jai Hind" have a lot of unrealistic expectation of tech transfer. PLA fans had this too in the late 90's. There's this imagination like all you have to do is send some AutoCAD files and suddenly you can just pump out airplanes or parts. You need those industrial machines, and more importantly those skilled machinists, engineers, etc.

Most PLA fans had the reckoning when they realized you can't just "copy" Al-31 by buying it and taking it apart. China didn't have the capability to fabricate the turbine blades, the software for the engine control, etc. Jai Hinds haven't evolved past this stage yet.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Jai Hinds are losing it more and more. Even a piece of footage showing decoy HQ-16 missiles make them write up entire articles implying China's military is weaker than India's simply because "look they use decoy balloons", as if that indicates anything.

Most militaries around the world use decoy balloons. A footage showing decoy balloons doesn't mean anything. China has more HQ-16 missiles and launchers than all of India has surface to air missiles. By some margin as well.

Most media use stock footage in place of footage they do not have or cannot show. H-6 bombers have become stationed near India - fact. H-6 bombers have flown near the borders - fact. Media does not have or cannot show footage of H-6 bombers flying around border - fact. Media uses random H-6 bomber flying footage over land in place. Does that mean H-6 bombers aren't stationed on airfields they previously weren't? Or that bombers have not performed some flights near the borders? Well Indian logic seems to think so ... lol.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
If India did demand such things from the US, they can get it. Lockheed was willing to give them the whole F-16 assembly line.
However it's meaningless because the capability in India isn't there. Hard to get to that level too.
You can see these issues with Rafale...
Look at Su-30MKI, decades later and they still rely on Russia for parts.
To set things straight, India is not asking Tech Transfer from US but offsets. This is different from the demands of Tech Transfer put forth to Russia.

It is a sign that India seeks US Relation and equipments higher than Russia. As you said, Lockheed may have flashed them its F16 Assembly Line but that comes under offset not Tech Transfer. India will merely build or assemble the F16 using critical components imported from Global F16 supply chain(if India took that offer). The licenses will be held by US/LM.

But India's Russian approach is different in that they demand Russians to spill Tech to their State enterprises for money.
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
These are similar deals like Under License F-16 Turkey got.
India cannot make more than what is agreed under license. and Russia gets upfront license fee thats why Russia prefer India as partner in both Military industries and Nuclear industry.
US has to invest in India to get the deal through offsets. Russia does not invest. it just sell the license.

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
India cannot make more than what is agreed under license. and Russia gets upfront license fee thats why Russia prefer India as partner in both Military industries and Nuclear industry.
US has to invest in India to get the deal through offsets. Russia does not invest. it just sell the license.

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US doesn't have to invest in India to get the deal through. There are many deals struck with US that involve straight purchase and no competitive process. It is widely believed ( who? By a share of Indians themselves ofc besides others ) that India does this to "persuade" US, as a component of diplomacy.

And that was my original post. Those deals that are more open ( unlike closed Government to Government deals) likely have offsets and local assembly.Then there are some deals that have no offset clauses or Tech Transfer. Outright buying like some Arab sheikdoms do often when US diplomats ring up.

So, seen together - both Offsets ( not Tech transfer) and outright purchases ( without clauses) - one can say that India is actively trying to craft a relation with US as a new "ally".
 

pmc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia has shortage of skills labor especially in Military industry. They prefer selling licenses. as Russia method of industrailization is 100% control on key things with always maintain trade Surplus.
US does not care about trade surpluses. it can import parts from Japan and Germany.
while US give jobs to millions of Indians. few high price deals are drop in bucket to what India gets from US. Russia will prefer that India has same influence in US as Israel.
India despite so far from Arctic still buy LNG from Russia. Russia and India relations has its own unique advantages to both sides and they will continue to trade.
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Russia has shortage of skills labor especially in Military industry. They prefer selling licenses. as Russia method of industrailization is 100% control on key things with always maintain trade Surplus.
US does not care about trade surpluses. it can import parts from Japan and Germany.
while US give jobs to millions of Indians. few high price deals are drop in bucket to what India gets from US. Russia will prefer that India has same influence in US as Israel.
India despite so far from Arctic still buy LNG from Russia. Russia and India relations has its own unique advantages to both sides and they will continue to trade.
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The jobs created in assembly plants aren't "millions". They are in the thousands at maximum and Indians are intending to use it to accumulate industry skills that they hope to be absorbed ( in the long term) just like how Turkey has been doing.

The few high value deals are exactly what my focus was on and I based my take on - that India is using them as diplomatic tools not so different from Arab sheikdoms.

Unless you can point to any official disclosures, you can't assert that Russia wants India to establish a relation as close as Israel has to US ( which isn't exactly a normal or organic relationship but has cultural or other reasons). Russia has been losing many orders to India and India will only continue to wean its dependence on Russian MIC. And No, Russia doesn't like that. No one will like losing customers.

Defence Industry is Russia's biggest source of Revenue and sustains a high skill base ( Gas and Food grains are other but they are low value added). Russia absolutely needs more Defence orders and prefers to sustain manufacturing at home.
 
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Abominable

Senior Member
Registered Member
US does not care about trade surpluses. it can import parts from Japan and Germany.
while US give jobs to millions of Indians. few high price deals are drop in bucket to what India gets from US. Russia will prefer that India has same influence in US as Israel.
India despite so far from Arctic still buy LNG from Russia. Russia and India relations has its own unique advantages to both sides and they will continue to trade.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
America does have a trade deficit, but it doesn't want it to get worse by losing out on military contracts. The heads of Lockhead Martin, Boeing, etc do care if they lose customers. Hence why you have F-16s still being produced nearly 50 years on.

Western countries have lots of what they call "cash cows", basically rich Arab countries that splurge on expensive military. The money made from each deal runs in to tens of billions. Russia only really has one - India. This has been financially very useful for Russia, particularly for its defence industry during a hard period.

Given the west sees Russia as an adversary, they are obviously unhappy with the India-Russia relationship. If an American company secures the Indian market, it would be a a big boost for them as well as a blow to Russia.

I don't think you would want to see India close to America as it would lead to a severe downgrading of relations with Russia.
 

Overbom

Colonel
Registered Member
Given the west sees Russia as an adversary, they are obviously unhappy with the India-Russia relationship. If an American company secures the Indian market, it would be a a big boost for them as well as a blow to Russia.

I don't think you would want to see India close to America as it would lead to a severe downgrading of relations with Russia.
Close to Russia, or close to the US, it doesn't matter

For every $ that India spends on foreign procurement, it is one less $ for domestic development for weapons.

I sincerely hope that India goes all out and start buying 100s of Rafales, foreign missiles, ships etc. It doesn't matter.
As long as that money isn't spent on domestic weapons then that's ok with me
 

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