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Gloire_bb

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this: Would you please list some? Because the picture that forms my mind when I try to link the words "achievement" and "Indian navy" is using harpoons to launch rope to ships sailing alongside. From the post I linked above:
1. Indian Navy was the key player in the 1971 war. Sure, a bold assessment, but it's worth noting that's it's widely accepted in India.
2. Indian Navy was instrumental in making the 1999 Kargil conflict the way it was. Or, to be exact, wasn't.
3. Indian Navy - and that is important - is quite skillful in explaining its role to the politicians. Both wartime and peacetime.
4. A much more typical assessment of Indian navy personnel - including assessment from people whom I trust - is actually quite high.
5. US sailors -some of them - are known for this attitude since forever; I can get you similar quotes on PLAN, French or whomever sans the British(who are even less humble:D). Or their pre-war quotes on inferior IJN. The problem isn't that they're like this, problem is that after 1942 it's typically different people who were making decisions.
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
It's not that the corrosion is damning evidence, it's more keeping in line with expectation. It would be shocking the ship looked like Shandong at its launch, which is why @by78's wisecrack is both apt and completely appropriate.

Certainly. I'd like to take us on a trip down memory lane, and to anyone who hasn't read this before - you're in for a treat:
/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/9uwqzk/iama_us_naval_officer_who_spent_5_days_onboard/
I don't want to post the whole Reddit link because the forum software will expand it.

I wouldn't say the two cases of the PLA and the Indian military are even superficially similar (an aside - I use the terms "military", "navy", etc. in the Indian context by analogy. Such terms confer a sense of legitimacy and professionalism that I do not wish them to, but such is the limitation of language). The disrespect and derision the PLA receives is almost entirely among the ignorant and under the most charitable interpretation is decades out of date. I've noticed this myself in the places I frequent: Among the knowledgeable, China's strength is biliously hated, but it isn't denied.

In contrast, India has shown no sign that it is anything other than what it always was. It's intruded into popular geostrategic discourse because, frankly, the US is desperate to contain China and this is the best it could come up with. Nothing about Indian industry (again with the term-by-analogy) or development or modernization or any parameter you please merits reassessment. That's not to say that I completely foreclose on the possibility that India is experiencing a renaissance like China has, but I'll quote Carl Sagan and say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I'm pretty sure CV-17 had superficial corrosion when it went on its first sea trial as well.
And many ships of many navies have superficial corrosion that develops during the fitting out process, so I categorically will say that a bit of superficial corrosion is no big deal and trying to make a joke out of that particular expense is unjustified.

While the Indian MIC and shipbuilding industry hasn't exactly showered itself in glory over the last few decades, important and relevant advances have been made, and they are ignored and derided at one's peril to long term planning.


My belief is that expressing less contempt and less chauvinism is always a good thing.
It costs nothing while it opens less weaknesses for opponents to exploit.


And yes, I've read that particular Reddit post before, but that doesn't change my point.
 

nemo

Junior Member
1. Indian Navy was the key player in the 1971 war. Sure, a bold assessment, but it's worth noting that's it's widely accepted in India.
2. Indian Navy was instrumental in making the 1999 Kargil conflict the way it was. Or, to be exact, wasn't.
3. Indian Navy - and that is important - is quite skillful in explaining its role to the politicians. Both wartime and peacetime.
4. A much more typical assessment of Indian navy personnel - including assessment from people whom I trust - is actually quite high.
5. US sailors -some of them - are known for this attitude since forever; I can get you similar quotes on PLAN, French or whomever sans the British(who are even less humble:D). Or their pre-war quotes on inferior IJN. The problem isn't that they're like this, problem is that after 1942 it's typically different people who were making decisions.
1,2 India has a massive material superiority over Pakistan. But still, to be able to execute operations successfully implies a certain level of competence.
3. Some might say the politicalization of military is a sign of political decay. But that may be a problem with democratic governments in general.
4. Quality of Indian Navy personnel? I don't see it. The following was an archive of an old post (on discus or reddit? -- I don't remember) that created some disturbance on its time.
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Granted, this is about 10 years old, but subsequently, we have incidents like submarine exploding while it was moored, etc. I have difficulty believing Indian Navy has improved to such a degree. Indeed, there is a visible gap between what Indian Government's claim of competence and actuality. Am I to believe that Indian Navy and Indian military in general is an exception?
5. Ok, but that does not preclude they are correct. The actual operational effectiveness is the final arbiter. IJN proved its effectiveness over an materially superior USN. Can Indian Navy do so over PLAN, not to mention USN?
 

ougoah

Colonel
Registered Member
lol Indian trolling others is an embarrassment to themselves. They're like the kid who gets an F grade all the time while always insisting on teasing much better performing kids.

This is a country that can only manage to produce 6 or so Tejas fighters a year when China manages to produce 20+ J-20s a year. Not to mention J-15, J-16, J-10, and numbers of UCAVs per year that exceeds India's entire all time procurement of UAVs from abroad. Not to mention the qualitative and capability difference between the Chinese ones and the Indian ones being at least 1 generation ahead if not much more. Tejas is a 1970s fighter they are struggling with today.

For a country that still uses people (sometimes children) to clear sewers, they do have big talents for bragging.

If you go to their forum, everything their pathetic DRDO is working on is automatically faultless and leading edge, superior to all except maybe American tech. In reality, they have barely started the project, is already talking it up, and it is two generations behind the latest that are already developed elsewhere but kept quiet. Is it then any surprise this is a country in rapid decline?

They will need make the quickly widening economic gap within India work i.e. double down on this brahman shit and create more artificial reasons for why an increasing proportion of their population is going into poverty (one of the only nations in the world in that trajectory) while an increasingly few attain a greater share of their already measly national resources. Eventually it is increased social instability while the Jai Hind crowd continue doing their hitler solutes while their surroundings decay. Their middle class has been in decline since 2017 and their solution is to redefine what it means to be middle class. It is unironically every evil they accuse others of. India is easily the most pathetic major nation on earth and the westerners don't care and won't bother even giving them a headline... we all know why in our heart of hearts.

The only thing left for proud Jai Hinds is to troll online. The last refuge of the destroyed ego with nothing better to do.
 

ougoah

Colonel
Registered Member
Meanwhile China was once the poorest country on earth with civil war, recovering from Japanese invasion, cultural revolution which disrupted the entire nation and millions died. It then turned everything around. China was never that far behind on science and tech. There was always token industries and ambitious projects occasionally let down by lack of funding, poor infrastructure, being behind the west in STEM, and lesser industries. Now that has finally been overcome and overcome by decades. The fruit of this is already becoming apparent and will only become increasingly apparent.

Once a nation that could only attempt to make plastic moulds for landline phones is leading the world in telecommunications technology, surpassing even Ericsson.

Once a nation that could only build some poor attempts at flying machines years after Wright brothers is one of the few nations in the world with the industry to supply Boeing and Airbus and build its own.

Landing on Mars and Moon on first attempts with orbiter, relay satellites, lander, and rover.

Largest space program with a slew of scientific missions being (completed and performed rather than showing PPTs) that rival the US and ESA to say nothing of India's ego driven missions of launching thousands of pieces of functionless "micro satellites". Which one is building several space and ground based telescopes that are larger than what's ever been done before? A few are already completed. Which nation has a deep space network and which one needs to go begging others for use of their?

India does not know how to make a single supercomputer. China's for the last 20 years have been world renowned and now leading with the US head to head. Who has two principles of quantum computing technology being pursued (several projects done btw)... China or India?

Who leads the world in shipbuilding? In electronics, in exports of all types of finished products and supplies for the entire world's manufacturing networks?

Who supplies Tesla cars with battery technology? Who is Apple asking to supply battery technology to? Mind you these are the two leading battery tech developers in the world and they are both Chinese (BYD and CATL). India meanwhile doesn't even have the infrastructure and tech to make camera lens which admittedly is difficult and expensive tech which China has had for decades... India?? lol. That's indian tech for you.

Comparing India and China is like comparing Albania with Switzerland. Maybe they are roughly the same size with sort of similar population sizes. That's as far as it goes. Of course the loser is going to be bitter and make all sorts of excuses for why the other is better and why they suck. However that attitude is exactly why they suck now and will continue to suck. Have fun sucking Jai Hindia.

BTW this is just the tip India. China's lead on you is far deeper than just the few things and areas listed. The gap between India and China is far wider than the gap between the US and China. It's obvious enough to everyone who is actually informed but there is no hope for the echo chamber Indians who talk each other up while their country struggles to produce more than 10 1970s era fighters with 128nm chips at best. What happened to the lauded Uttam? India celebrating for years of a potential prototype AESA that is still being worked out and when it does, is rubbish. This whole time busy proclaiming it will be the best and Chinese AESAs suck despite China having roughly a 20 year AESA tech lead on India.

India shows everyone desperately as it boosts its first test of a "hypersonic glide vehicle", decades away from being weaponised. China has been doing those level tests since 2000s and when many are in service, shows one type of strategic deterrence publicly. India's probably burned up as soon as the HGV separated from rocket if it even managed to separate. Says we ran it for 20 seconds lol. US silent and no one recognises the test meanwhile US desperately tells the world China is developing HGVs when China was just testing theirs quietly. There's your difference. Meanwhile India has the ego to troll others and talk down on others at the bottom of the world. Have some shame.

Your people are sitting and crowding on the rooftops of mid 20th century trains and these are the lucky ones! The unlucky Indians were forced to walk 1000km+ to get home when your public transport system collapsed in 2020. Your country can't even weather the smallest of hiccups. China overcame invasion, civil war, famine and poverty all at the same time and turned its country into the world's factory the most integrated supply chain player all in two generations. Have some decency and respect for others. Talk less, hate on China less, troll less, do more, be better.
 
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supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
RIP.

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I’m surprised you Indian military non-fans aren’t talking about this more.

Not meaning to disrespect the dead, but I think that’s the 17th Dhruv crash since introduction in 2002.

HAL and the government blames pilot error for most of the crashes, but Ecuador was so dissatisfied with them that they were quickly withdrawn from service and deliveries cancelled.
 

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