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Bltizo

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Probably because it's been soaking in the water for eight years. Then again, nothing in India looks new, even if truly new.

Let's avoid making unnecessary jokes at other's expense.

In this case, the Vikrant while it has a bit of corrosion, is far from abnormal for ships that have been fitting out (even for more "normal" fitting out durations). Any bit of superficial corrosion or rust will easily be remedied by the time the ship itself finishes sea trials and enters service, same for ships of other navies as well.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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Any bit of superficial corrosion or rust will easily be remedied by the time the ship itself finishes sea trials and enters service, same for ships of other navies as well.
Just as we should avoid making unnecessary jokes, we should also avoid making unwarranted assumptions of competence - or indeed normalcy - about certain navies who have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate such and plenty to merit derision (the infamous Reddit post of a visiting US naval officer comes to mind).
 

Bltizo

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Just as we should avoid making unnecessary jokes, we should also avoid making unwarranted assumptions of competence - or indeed normalcy - about certain navies who have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate such and plenty to merit derision (the infamous Reddit post of a visiting US naval officer comes to mind).

My point is, a bit of corrosion is no big deal and portraying it as if it is a reflection of some kind of unique kind of incompetence is unfair and not warranted in this case for what is an important milestone of the ship.

If there are legitimate criticisms then by all means, they can be described.

But as PLA watchers we all know the kind of inane, inaccurate, and incompetent hot takes that defense enthusiasts of other persuasions make and the poor reputation they have, so there is no reason for people here to join them.
 

Gloire_bb

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Just as we should avoid making unnecessary jokes, we should also avoid making unwarranted assumptions of competence - or indeed normalcy - about certain navies who have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate such and plenty to merit derision (the infamous Reddit post of a visiting US naval officer comes to mind).
We're talking about 40'000t ship, with a corresponding hull thickness.
Dangerous rusting of the hull - if there are some of the most basic precautions in place, which clearly are - will take literally decades(many of them).
Even without doing anything else.

Doesn't look pretty, but she isn't on a parade.

about certain navies who have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate such and plenty to merit derision
Oh, of all things, the Indian navy has a lot of achievements under its belt.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Senior Member
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My point is, a bit of corrosion is no big deal and portraying it as if it is a reflection of some kind of unique kind of incompetence is unfair and not warranted in this case for what is an important milestone of the ship.
It's not that the corrosion is damning evidence, it's more keeping in line with expectation. It would be shocking the ship looked like Shandong at its launch, which is why @by78's wisecrack is both apt and completely appropriate.
If there are legitimate criticisms then by all means, they can be described.
Certainly. I'd like to take us on a trip down memory lane, and to anyone who hasn't read this before - you're in for a treat:
/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/9uwqzk/iama_us_naval_officer_who_spent_5_days_onboard/
I don't want to post the whole Reddit link because the forum software will expand it.
But as PLA watchers we all know the kind of inane, inaccurate, and incompetent hot takes that defense enthusiasts of other persuasions make and the poor reputation they have, so there is no reason for people here to join them.
I wouldn't say the two cases of the PLA and the Indian military are even superficially similar (an aside - I use the terms "military", "navy", etc. in the Indian context by analogy. Such terms confer a sense of legitimacy and professionalism that I do not wish them to, but such is the limitation of language). The disrespect and derision the PLA receives is almost entirely among the ignorant and under the most charitable interpretation is decades out of date. I've noticed this myself in the places I frequent: Among the knowledgeable, China's strength is biliously hated, but it isn't denied.

In contrast, India has shown no sign that it is anything other than what it always was. It's intruded into popular geostrategic discourse because, frankly, the US is desperate to contain China and this is the best it could come up with. Nothing about Indian industry (again with the term-by-analogy) or development or modernization or any parameter you please merits reassessment. That's not to say that I completely foreclose on the possibility that India is experiencing a renaissance like China has, but I'll quote Carl Sagan and say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Oh, of all things, the Indian navy has a lot of achievements under its belt.
I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this: Would you please list some? Because the picture that forms my mind when I try to link the words "achievement" and "Indian navy" is using harpoons to launch rope to ships sailing alongside. From the post I linked above:
Have you ever seen a US ship do an unrep at sea? When we pull along side and shoot the shotline across (basically a thick piece of yarn for those who don't know) there's a nice soft tennis ball affixed to the end of it so that it'll bounce of the deck and someone can go retrieve it... the Indians shot a spear. A motherfucking spear. Like, a 16" long piece of metal with a point on the end....
And just some more choice selections from the post:
3, at best. They had some marginally competent folks, but for every one person who was half-competent, there were 4 other guys just standing around looking clueless.
Truthfully, after touring their ship extensively I would be very much surprised if the majority of their armament even successfully fired, let along hit anything.
Truthfully - bottom of the ocean. I would be surprised if most of their gear worked. The stuff I saw (I got a pretty extensive tour) looked like it fell straight out of the 60s and 70s and I would be genuinely flabbergasted if they got any rounds off. They could barely avoid hitting other ships in the middle of the Pacific, I doubt they'd be popping off any rounds with any amount of accuracy.
They have an entire "class" of civilians onboard. I still don't know what to make of them. I think they were some sort of cheap labor, but everybody onboard referred to them as slaves. As in, they used the word "slave".
 

siegecrossbow

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
It's not that the corrosion is damning evidence, it's more keeping in line with expectation. It would be shocking the ship looked like Shandong at its launch, which is why @by78's wisecrack is both apt and completely appropriate.

Certainly. I'd like to take us on a trip down memory lane, and to anyone who hasn't read this before - you're in for a treat:
/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/9uwqzk/iama_us_naval_officer_who_spent_5_days_onboard/
I don't want to post the whole Reddit link because the forum software will expand it.

I wouldn't say the two cases of the PLA and the Indian military are even superficially similar (an aside - I use the terms "military", "navy", etc. in the Indian context by analogy. Such terms confer a sense of legitimacy and professionalism that I do not wish them to, but such is the limitation of language). The disrespect and derision the PLA receives is almost entirely among the ignorant and under the most charitable interpretation is decades out of date. I've noticed this myself in the places I frequent: Among the knowledgeable, China's strength is biliously hated, but it isn't denied.

In contrast, India has shown no sign that it is anything other than what it always was. It's intruded into popular geostrategic discourse because, frankly, the US is desperate to contain China and this is the best it could come up with. Nothing about Indian industry (again with the term-by-analogy) or development or modernization or any parameter you please merits reassessment. That's not to say that I completely foreclose on the possibility that India is experiencing a renaissance like China has, but I'll quote Carl Sagan and say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this: Would you please list some? Because the picture that forms my mind when I try to link the words "achievement" and "Indian navy" is using harpoons to launch rope to ships sailing alongside. From the post I linked above:

And just some more choice selections from the post:

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In the
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the
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conducted two raids using
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employing the Styx on the Pakistani naval base at
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. These raids resulted in the destruction or crippling of approximately two thirds of the
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. Major losses included two
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, a
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, an
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, approximately a dozen
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and numerous smaller craft. Major shore-based facilities, including fuel storage tanks and naval installations were also destroyed. The Osas returned to base without loss.
 

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