Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

MwRYum

Major
It is indeed in India's interest. For, Tibet's separation from China means not only the resolution of its land disputes with China in its north and north-east, but also a China which is reduced in size. So there would be reduced economic competition.

Well you just proved what I've been saying, then.

IIRC the Nepalese government recently decided to end the recruitment of Nepali citizens by foreign armies in the country. I suppose it has or will in the near future also end the honorary connection of the Indian commander-in-chief with the Nepali army.

India would be a more important country in the world as a member of SCO and ally of China than as a satellite of the US.

Unfortunately India couldn't afford that - while India consider the Indian Ocean is their pond, everyone knows the biggest shot is the US, with at least a carrier battle group on call in the region at any one time. Thus when presented the choice to challenge US dominance or to operate under US umbrella, which the latter afford them to grow to challenge China and even getting US support in this matter, there's no argument in taking US side.
 

delft

Brigadier
Unfortunately India couldn't afford that - while India consider the Indian Ocean is their pond, everyone knows the biggest shot is the US, with at least a carrier battle group on call in the region at any one time. Thus when presented the choice to challenge US dominance or to operate under US umbrella, which the latter afford them to grow to challenge China and even getting US support in this matter, there's no argument in taking US side.
You make out that the Indians are absolute cowards. I don't believe that. If India were to solve its border problems with Pakistan and China and become a member of SCO, would it then have reason to fear aggression from the US? After the US lost their grip on Iraq? This is a truly absurd vision of international relations.

Even if you assume that the US are totally unreasonable, which in itself is a very strange assumption.
 
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Actually, India has already executed such a strategy before and is not new to it.

The Indian Army overtly trained and armed the Mukti Bahini (Bengali : Freedom Wing), which was instrumental in liberating Bangladesh (then, East Pakistan) in the 1971 war with Pakistan. This guerilla outfit consisted of locals from East Pakistan, who were willing to take on the Pak army.

Incidentally, the SFF was instrumental in the Bangladesh war too. Many were awarded after it. So they do have accumulated experience in covert war tactics.


Like I said before, India has successfully executed such a strategy before vis-a-vis Bangladesh. The SFF is also not completely independent. It is under the Indian Intelligence.


The loyalty of Tibetans towards India is left to the future. But India shall always host His Holiness, the Dalai Lama for all time, because being the birthplace of Buddhism and having many of its holiest shrines, India considers its duty to protect and provide shelter to His Holiness and his followers.

Note that the Government of India officially regards His Holiness as an honoured guest of India. He and his followers are always welcome to this land.


There are no documented reports of the SFF contravening orders from the Indian establishment.


India Army continues to have vast Nepali regiments amongst its ranks, called Gorkhas
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.

In fact, the Indian Army Chief is the ceremonial head of the Nepali Army and vice-versa :
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Now, as far as LTTE is concerned it had nothing to do with the IA but India's Intelligence Wing called RAW. They were trained and armed initially because a lot of Tamil refugees used to keep streaming in from Sri-Lanka to India's Tamil Nadu state, thereby causing local disbalance. So the armed training initially helped them handle the Sri-Lankan atrocities. But later, they got out of hand, and you can read further about the IPKF
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Interesting again that India has imitated the British and intervene in internal affairs/subvert all her sovereign neighbors, including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Maldives, China etc. Bhutan has been practically annexed.

Not sure if this is the reputation India wants.

Lest not forget the LTTE's goal was an independent Enclave in Ceylon when RAW started training them.
 

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
Indians should compare itself less with China and set its feet solidly on the ground, actually work hard and stop daydreaming. Chinese economic miracle didn't happen because its citizens were sitting on the side of the road daydreaming, but rather shedding blood and sweat, busting their ass everyday working. The Indian counterpart didn't accomplish anything after the British left.

India's first railroad was built in 1853, 23 years before the China. By the time the British had left, India already had 70,000 km rail system, the second longest in the world. It was almost 4 times longer than the Chinese counterpart and the technology used was far more sophisticated. But as of today, the mileage actually shrunk. On the contrary, China's length doubles at a staggering 120,000km and expansion accelerated to 10,000km a year. I can't help but wonder, what have the Indians been doing in the past century?

Literacy rate in India is still only 75% rate. It's almost 100% in China, the same level as developed nations. A developing country needs talents to help building the nation. India can't just waste all it's money on weapon purchases and let those kids starve and not able to go to school.

After all, the mighty USN didn't beat Japan because of it had superman soldiers, but rather because of all the engineers in places like MIT and Boeing, plus the millions of advanced factories throughout the country. If India wants to accelerate in all fields and become a legitimate superpower it always dreamed to be, it has to build its foundation, rather than just compare itself with China everyday and show off with weapons purchased from foreign companies.
 

eldarlmari

New Member
very interesting video depicting some of the reasons why india chose the rafale:

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and how the Typhoon is even getting British PM Cameron involved to persuade them to change their minds:

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Indianfighter

Junior Member
And the British used to rule India. Does that still apply today?
Huh ? I'm speaking of a war strategy which India successfully deployed and won in 1971. Even the SFF was also part of that war. What's all that got to do with British rule ?

Funny you managed to miss the fundamental point I was making even though you yourself has stated it above - the last (and only) time India managed to cause another country to break in two led to war, which was my point exactly.
I'm saying India is ready to deploy the same strategy vis-a-vis China to break apart Tibet from it. That's why SFF exists in the first place !

In addition, East Pakistan only became modern day Bangladesh because of the 1971 war between India and Pakistan. Is India prepared to fight a war with China to try and annex Tibet?
Yes. Rest assured, a 1962 won't be repeated atleast, if not an outright victory for India.

As things stand, and with the way things are projected to develop in the future, it is far more likely for China to engineer part of India to break away than for India to cause Tibet to break away from China. India is already having a terrible time fighting against Maoist rebels who have no outside support. Imagine how much worse that insurgence could be if China started supplying them with the latest in infantry weapons, encrypted communications gear, supplies and safe havens inside of China. Maybe even send in some special forces teams to train and support them. Then there are all the Kashmir anti-Indian groups...
Indian Maoists regard Chairman Mao as their leader. They want to capture New Delhi's Parliament, tear up the Constitution and blah blah bah

Its more to do with land rights, forced urbanization, etc. But Tibet is far more serious, because an another race of people (Han Chinese) are occupying Tibetans, who are distinct from Chinese in language and culture, history and what not.
If the gloves came off, even without going to all out war, China could cause massive trouble for India, by arming and supporting Indian domestic insurgents, and inflict far more damage than India ever could with such tactics.
All nations will apply their tactics and only time will tell who wins or loses.

Your 'strategy' is a blatant non-starter, and India's decision to organize the SFF as it has could easily backfire spectacularly. If Tibetan extremes become more overly violent, India might one day suddenly realize that all those 'refugee' camps having become training camps. If and when terrorist attacks are linked to those camps, India will be faced with a very difficult choice - clear and close down the camps, or risk international ire and Chinese retaliation.
If at all, 'International sympathies' are with Tibetans and the least with an oppressive regime like China's. The fact that His Holiness and his followers' trips go to the UN, the US, Europe and many other countries are sponsored by India. And they welcome him with open arms, much to China's protestations and complaints.

If India chooses the lessor of two evils and closes the camps, the SFF could easily turn into India's Taliban, and turn on their former backers as the Taliban turned on the Americans.
Yeah, right.....

Right, that is why the SFF is not allowed within 10km of the Chinese boarder without explicit orders. :rolleyes:
And how do you claim that ?

To have entire commands comprised almost exclusively of foreign nationals/ethnicity is not a practice anyone else employs, for very good and obvious reasons.
The Indian military adopts and executes strategies according to its own needs. It doesn't have to copy other nations.

India and Nepal are both Hindu nations (Nepal officially so), and historically have had strong military ties since centuries. India sort of acts as the protectorate of Nepal. Note that Nepali and Indian citizens do Not need a Visa to visit each other's countries. They can even freely take jobs, buy property or conduct business. They only cannot vote.

Similarly Bhutan is India's protectorate too (India handles its foreign affairs).

And the British Queen is the ceremonial head of state of Australia. Would Australian military units obey orders issued by the Queen of England?
Not exactly, but according to an old treaty between India and Nepal, the armies of both countries pledge to defend each other in times of war. So maybe such an arrangement may come into picture then, but I don't know the details.

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This discussion is becoming political in nature. Let's get back to the military discussions.

The moral of the story is that something called an SFF exists, a highly trained unit of Tibetans who will be ready to conduct covert military ops inside Tibet or Chinese territory, should the need arise. Its interesting, though not much is known about it.
 

delft

Brigadier
Let's not go into a military discussion, it's against the rules. Let's remember that the chances of aggression by an economically inferior party in terrain that demands the utmost of the material equipment against a well armed opponent are slim indeed.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Huh ? I'm speaking of a war strategy which India successfully deployed and won in 1971. Even the SFF was also part of that war. What's all that got to do with British rule ?

Well, if you have read the next line, it should be pretty clear what I meant.

Copy pasting past strategies and applying them to future events without any consideration for the different circumstances is worse than just repetition.


I'm saying India is ready to deploy the same strategy vis-a-vis China to break apart Tibet from it. That's why SFF exists in the first place !

My entire last post was to illustrate what a ridiculously bad idea that would be for India to ever try it.

Yes. Rest assured, a 1962 won't be repeated atleast, if not an outright victory for India.

:rolleyes:

Indian Maoists regard Chairman Mao as their leader. They want to capture New Delhi's Parliament, tear up the Constitution and blah blah bah

If that is the prevailing attitude of Indians wrt the Maoist rebellion, it's little wonder the insurgence has gotten so out of hand.

Its more to do with land rights, forced urbanization, etc. But Tibet is far more serious, because an another race of people (Han Chinese) are occupying Tibetans, who are distinct from Chinese in language and culture, history and what not.

Please spare us your political propaganda babble. Thus far everyone has tried their level best to keep politics out of the discussion and have only been focusing on the practicalities of how absurd it is for India to aim to resolve it's territorial disputes with China by trying to promote Tibetan separatism.

All nations will apply their tactics and only time will tell who wins or loses.

Is that how they do things in India? Just go for it without any consideration about the feasibility of a plan, never mind the costs and consequences and see what happens? :rolleyes:

If at all, 'International sympathies' are with Tibetans and the least with an oppressive regime like China's. The fact that His Holiness and his followers' trips go to the UN, the US, Europe and many other countries are sponsored by India. And they welcome him with open arms, much to China's protestations and complaints.

So you think the world is going to side with India if Indian trained and equipped Tibetan terrorists start launching terrorist attacks in China? Much that says about your judgement.

And how do you claim that ?

Is google banned in India? This is a well documented fact, even if you did not know of it, you could have found out about it in 20 seconds on google.

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In 1973, the original Inspector General of the SFF was replaced and in 1975 a new rule pertaining to the SFF was issued. This prohibited the SFF from being deployed within 10 km of the Indo-Chinese border. This came about after several incidents in which SFF commandos had crossed the border and conducted unsanctioned cross-border operations.


The Indian military adopts and executes strategies according to its own needs. It doesn't have to copy other nations.

Funny you say that, since the Indian military does seem to go out of it's way to emulate the British, but even the British make damn sure their Gorkhas regiment is well staff with British nationals at every level.

But if you honestly cannot see the potential dangers of having entire military commands comprised almost entirely of foreigners, then I am clearly wasting my time trying to discuss anything with you.

India and Nepal are both Hindu nations (Nepal officially so), and historically have had strong military ties since centuries. India sort of acts as the protectorate of Nepal. Note that Nepali and Indian citizens do Not need a Visa to visit each other's countries. They can even freely take jobs, buy property or conduct business. They only cannot vote.

And India and Pakistan were once one nation.

Similarly Bhutan is India's protectorate too (India handles its foreign affairs).

Funny you have the cheek to pontificate about Tibet and then gloat about India's effective annexation of Bhutan all in the same post.

This discussion is becoming political in nature. Let's get back to the military discussions.

The discussion is only turning political because you are bringing politics into it to try and deflect from the fact that your suggestions make no sense and are downright ridiculous.

Advocating trying to cause parts of your neighbors to break away as a means of resolving territorial disputes is plainly ridiculous as a strategy in itself, and as India's boarder clashes with Bangladesh shows, entirely ineffective as a means of solving India's boarder disputes. It merely transfers the boarder dispute from one nation to another.

That is assuming the strategy works in the first place, which as I have already explained, because of the imbalance of power between China and India, there is just no way India could hope to orchestrate the secession of Tibet from China without China knowing and being able to prove it. So for India to even try would lead to all out war.

You have also been twisting history to fit in with your own agenda, because East Pakistan only became Bangladesh because India fought a war with Pakistan for it. The SFF played their part, but it was the war that caused the breakup, not the SFF. If the fully might of the Indian military was not brought to bare and only the SFF were involved, they would have been crushed.

So, if you had managed to get your history straight, you would have realized that what you are proposing is in effect for India to fight a war to annex Tibet. That is what following your only precedent means and requires. Even if India had the stomach for such a war, it clearly does not have anywhere like the capability to pull it off.

The moral of the story is that something called an SFF exists, a highly trained unit of Tibetans who will be ready to conduct covert military ops inside Tibet or Chinese territory, should the need arise. Its interesting, though not much is known about it.

That is just a statement of how things are, the moral of the story is that the way the Indians have set up the SFF is a recipe for disaster. The SFF has already gone rough in the past, to the point where India had to ban them from operating in the region they were created to operate in.

But instead of learning for that and making the necessary changes to entire the SFF's loyalty and obedience, India merely treated the symptoms and not the cause.

As I have explained already, Tibet isn't going anywhere, and if India ever does enjoy better relations with China, it could suddenly find the Tibetan populous and military units on their soil not as friendly or docile as most Indians and westerns like to think.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Actually, India has already executed such a strategy before and is not new to it.

The Indian Army overtly trained and armed the Mukti Bahini (Bengali : Freedom Wing), which was instrumental in liberating Bangladesh (then, East Pakistan) in the 1971 war with Pakistan. This guerilla outfit consisted of locals from East Pakistan, who were willing to take on the Pak army.

what were you thinking of when you made this comment, that no one would see it and you could just slip it through the net?

West and East Pakistan was a PAKISTANI MUSLIM issue, it was internal disagreement, India or no India the 2 countrys would eventaully have to go seperate ways as they were 1000s of kms apart and there was no way of making 2 countrys working under 1 system

since India had been owned in the 1965 war it took advantage of the weak political establishment in Pakistan in 1971, it was a low blow from India, since India could not afford a fair and sqaure war with a united Pakistan they decided that they would interfere in internal Pakistan East and West issue and supply arms to East Pakistan, we had no leadership we didnt even have a goverment, how is that a victory for India?

India played a dirty game, even then entire Indian air force never managed to destroyer just 12 F86 Sabres of the Pakistan Air Force at Dhaka air base even after 2 weeks of war with over 250 fighters, eventually Pakistan destroyed them on he ground themselves when they finally ran out of fuel so they dont fall into enemy hands

China had asked Pakistan to open a 2nd front in 1962, at the time we refused, not because we didnt want to help China but because our leaders were busy in Washington, then we had to go alone in 1965 and China still helped

we learnt out lessons, and in all the wars since China has helped Pakistan, and if India plays border wars with China you can bet ur bottom dollar Pakistan army will mobilize to Indian border
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
My entire last post was to illustrate what a ridiculously bad idea that would be for India to ever try it.
You've been rambling on ad nauseum that "its a bad idea, absurd idea". You can leave that to the Indian Army, alright ?

So you think the world is going to side with India if Indian trained and equipped Tibetan terrorists start launching terrorist attacks in China?
Yes. And not "terrorists", the'd be called freedom fighters.

Is google banned in India? This is a well documented fact, even if you did not know of it, you could have found out about it in 20 seconds on google.

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In 1973, the original Inspector General of the SFF was replaced and in 1975 a new rule pertaining to the SFF was issued. This prohibited the SFF from being deployed within 10 km of the Indo-Chinese border. This came about after several incidents in which SFF commandos had crossed the border and conducted unsanctioned cross-border operations.
Well, this is not China that google has to be nearly-banned.

There is a lot of documentation on how the CIA worked with SFF to try to snoop on and sabotage Chinese ICBM tests. It could well have been to cover it up, as the US was hostile to India during the 1971 war.

Anyway, can you blame a few brave Tibetans raring to go into their motherland ? They fought for India in Bangladesh and much later in Kargil. Can you blame them for seizing every little window of opportunity even at the cost of not complying with directives ?
So they have to be restrained. Just like how the PLA shot dead 4 deserters late in 2011. "We have millions of soldiers in China," Ni said Thursday. "We can't stop one or two or a few from going crazy like this, but when such things happened before, they never reported it. Now because of the Internet and new media, it is impossible for the government to control the flow of information."(Ouch! We must re-ban google and that baidu too!)

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Funny you have the cheek to pontificate about Tibet and then gloat about India's effective annexation of Bhutan all in the same post.
Bhutan doesn't have an iota of oil or any natural resource that India can siphon out in exchange for this. It has willingly agreed for its foreign policy to be handled by India.

These are called good relations. Uncompromising and unconditional. Something China never has had with Vietnam (South China sea), Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Tibet, Russia.

You have also been twisting history to fit in with your own agenda, because East Pakistan only became Bangladesh because India fought a war with Pakistan for it. The SFF played their part, but it was the war that caused the breakup, not the SFF. If the fully might of the Indian military was not brought to bare and only the SFF were involved, they would have been crushed.
Then whoever told you, that SFF will liberate Tibet on its own without the Indian military playing its part? Or you came to conclude erroneously ? Of course to liberate Tibet, the Indian military will fully fight the Chinese one and there potentially can be WW3.

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asif iqbal, why do you bother to post at all ?
 
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