Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Yodello

Junior Member
Registered Member
From Henri K blog

The elements seem to suggest that the Chinese army are massing progressively in Tibet. When the Chinese no longer speak, they act ...

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Hmmm. Gonna take a lot more than some hardware to convince me personally. Maybe in a couple of Months we'll know definitely if China can truly be a Military power. If China can get India to back off without a fight, I'll be surprised. I just don't see India backing down without a fight on this one, and I truly believe that the Indians believe they are capable of giving the Chinese a bloody nose and embarrassing the Chinese in a limited conflict. India has so much to gain from this episode. It has already gained a lot of stature by 'standing up to China' in most peoples eyes. The longer this impasse drags on, there is an even greater chance for the Indian side of the narrative to gain greater traction and become the de facto 'truth', because all the western propaganda machinery would favor the Indian narrative as they are already starting to do. It will become even harder for China to act without 'ultimatums' or 'consequences' from the West, as China would be viewed as encroaching upon territory already occupied by the Indians. Dragging things thus far has put the Indians in a better position that most people would give it credit for.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Ok Ok I know this is the Indian Military news thread, but hope the mods will let me get away this once.

You mean to say that China can't fight a two-front war? That it isn't capable of defending its interests in multiple scenerios? That its military is only capable of fighting in a one-dimensional scenerio? That it simply doesn't have the capability, or more importantly the will to defend its own territory because it 'thinks' that some unforessen circumstances might pop up? You mean China should never be surprised and that it should know every scenerio and maybe even know the future in advance before it can even act to defend its own territory or have the guts to defend itself? If it is so, China maybe even less of a Military power than many would imagine. Reading and thinking about the current impasse (inside Chinese territory occupied by India) at the border, I tend to think that there is a strategic fear of failure within the Chinese military and that psyche runs deep, so deep that, as I stated previously, it binds China into a straitjacket. And yes, one needs brains to succeed in anything, but sometimes in a conflict, sheer 'balls' do let you win. Do not discount the value of sheer 'balls', coz all that 'brains' would count for nothing if you lack the 'balls' to act. Case closed.
These aren't unforeseen circumstances; I foresaw them. I think that the probability of their coming to fruition cannot be ignored and obviously, the generals of the PLA foresaw them too. It looks like a trap and you don't wanna take your balls and slam them into a trap, do you?

China can fight a 2-front war; China can fight a 10-front war. Depends on who it's with!! If you have the US helping out ROC and leading the advance in North Korea, and on the other front, India, not a minor power like Vietnam or something, this war will be very very difficult. I think your narrative here is just to act and take things as they come and that's just not smart enough a plan for this game.

You are ironically correct in your sarcastic quip. China aims to never be surprised by unforeseen circumstances and to calculate every scenario in the future with plans to act. As a matter of fact, every (competent) nation does, most certainly including the US and Russia. No one wants to bungle into things only to be "surprised." That's exactly what you want to inflict onto your enemy, not run into yourself.

That said, China does seem to be simultaneously building troop power in Tibet and near North Korea. Maybe it took the PLA this long to run simulations, discuss, practice drills, and finally conclude that it could, with a safe margin of error, handle a 2-3 front conflict. We'll see. But believe me, nobody here will be happier than me if we see in the news that the PLA launches a debilitating strike on India for their actions. I simply want to be sure that China does not fall into a trap.
 
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Yodello

Junior Member
Registered Member
These aren't unforeseen circumstances; I foresaw them. I think that the probability of their coming to fruition cannot be ignored and obviously, the generals of the PLA foresaw them too. It looks like a trap and you don't wanna take your balls and slam them into a trap, do you?

China can fight a 2-front war; China can fight a 10-front war. Depends on who it's with!! If you have the US helping out ROC and leading the advance in North Korea, and on the other front, India, not a minor power like Vietnam or something, this war will be very very difficult. I think your narrative here is just to act and take things as they come and that's just not smart enough a plan for this game.

You are correct in your ironically sarcastic quip. China aims to never be surprised by unforeseen circumstances and to calculate every scenario in the future with plans to act. As a matter of fact, every (competent) nation does, most certainly including the US and Russia. No one wants to bungle into things only to be "surprised." That's exactly what you want to inflict onto your enemy, not run into yourself.

That said, China does seem to be simultaneously building troop power in Tibet and near North Korea. Maybe it took the PLA this long to run simulations, discuss, practice drills, and finally conclude that it could, with a safe margin of error, handle a 2-3 front conflict. We'll see. But believe me, nobody here will be happier than me if we see in the news that the PLA launches a debilitating strike on India for their actions. I simply want to be sure that China does not fall into a trap.

Thanks for the well-thought reply. We'll see how things play out over the next few weeks after Ajit Doval's visit to China. Till then, India has been on a 'High' with its new found attention and self-adulation, praises from some quarters of the West. It sure has been winning the rounds till now. Let me just end this by saying, China's PR sure sucks.
 
It's important for any side of a disagreement to get their perspective across so PR matters, it can be a powerful force multiplier or negate the benefits of concrete actions.

I found the following article to be a rare circumspect one in English language media despite the anti-China slant, it is the second in a series the first of which I linked in a post in the now closed Sino-Indian border thread under Strategic Defense.

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sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
In the Western media, they criticize China for "overpopulation". So China implements "One Child policy' to curb population growth, but then the Western media criticized it as human rights violations, anti-abortion, and gender imbalance, grow old before rich.

In Western media, they criticize China for smog, environmental damage, and high air pollution causing climate change. So China implements massive investments in renewable energy such as solar power, but Western media criticized Chinese solar investments as "dumping massive solar panels to gain global market share", unfair market competition by government subsidies, and stealing jobs.

In the end, Chinese are damned if they do something, damned if they don't. Can't reason with the naturally biased Western media outlets, so why care what they think?

Indians can enjoy Western praise in the interim, but China will not cede a single inch of territory to win any praise from the biased West media.

Be careful, you are speaking the truth, therefore the mod will shut you down and delete you post like they did to my.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China doesn't budge. Now it is up to India . I hope they know what they are doing if you stick your hand in hornet nest
They hope for compromise which seem unlikely

Top China, India Officials Meet as Border Standoff Drags On
By
Iain Marlow
and
Ting Shi
July 27, 2017, 11:22 PM CDT July 28, 2017, 12:36 AM CDT
  • In remote Himalayas, troops face off amid tense relations
  • China insists on India’s withdrawal before formal talks start
Top Chinese and Indian officials met in Beijing amid a tense border stand-off in the Himalayas and an increasingly protracted diplomatic impasse.

The Thursday meeting between Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi and India’s National Security Adviser Ajit Doval was the first high-level meeting since the weeks-long dispute began in a contested mountainous border area near Bhutan. It was part of a meeting of top security advisers for the BRICS nations of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

"At present, there are deep and complex changes in the international situation," Yang said at a separate group meeting Friday. "There is an increase in uncertainty and instability."

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China’s Yang Jiechi, center, and India’s Ajit Doval, far right, in Beijing on July 28.

Photographer: Ng Han Guan/AFP via Getty Images
Yang held separate meetings with BRICS NSAs including Doval, in which they exchanged views on "bilateral ties, international and regional hotspot issues." Yang also expounded China’s "principled stance" on "important matters," according to the
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posted on China’s foreign ministry’s website.

The meeting comes as the two Asian powers jostle for broader geopolitical
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in South Asia. New Delhi is wary of Chinese investments in neighboring countries such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka, while Beijing is irked by India’s lack of support for its global Belt and Road infrastructure and trade initiative.

"Doval’s official purpose is attending the BRICS meetings, but the border dispute will be high up on the agenda because that’s the biggest elephant in the room," said
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, a former Chinese diplomat based in India and Pakistan, who is now director of the Center for South Asian Studies at Shanghai’s Fudan University. "The visit will present the first good and genuine opportunity for both sides to sit down and discuss where we go from here."

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The dispute is at a three-way junction between Bhutan, China’s Tibet and India’s Sikkim. Bhutan accused a Chinese road-building party of crossing into its territory on June 16. India
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its troops approached the Chinese party and urged them to "desist from changing the status quo."

Most observers expect the standoff to be resolved diplomatically, but a sense of rising nationalism in both countries makes it difficult for either side to stand down. That risks prolonging the face-off as troops continue to stare at each other of a September BRICS summit in China’s Xiamen.

Chinese state-owned media have issued editorials reminding India of China’s victory in a 1962 border war. The Communist Party-affiliated Global Times
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India will suffer "worse losses" than in 1962 if it doesn’t stand down and warned New Delhi to "get prepared for all possibilities from a potentially grave escalation of tension in the future."

On July 24, defense ministry spokesman Wu Qian warned India not to underestimate the country’s armed forces. China’s determination to defend its territory was "unshakable," he said, adding that it’s "easier to shake a mountain than to shake the People’s Liberation Army."

‘Harsh’ Rhetoric
"Chinese rhetoric has remained harsh, rather than softening, and Beijing will want to see how India responds to sustained pressure," said Shashank Joshi, a senior research fellow at London’s Royal United Services Institute, or RUSI. The Doval visit could lay the groundwork for formal talks but it is unlikely to produce a "quick breakthrough," he said.

India and China have several contested borders and minor incursions happen from time to time. But this stand-off is the most serious in decades. The dispute is near a sensitive narrow corridor that connects India to its northeast and involves a third country.

"This is different from previous times, both in terms of the rhetoric and in terms of what they’ve chosen to do," said Shivshankar Menon, a former Indian national security adviser who was involved in previous border negotiations with China. "The Chinese signaling has also changed. They obviously see a function for the Global Times that makes sure that China’s views get into the headlines abroad."

China’s Confidence
China has
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Indian troops of illegally trespassing into Chinese territory and said India must withdraw troops before any formal negotiations.

Indian officials have said they want a peaceful resolution. Indian Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar told a group of diplomats in New Delhi on July 21 that the two countries were still talking, according to one western diplomat.

China’s statements on the dispute reflect its confidence, according to Michael Kugelman, a senior associate for South Asia at the Washington, D.C.-based Woodrow Wilson Center.


"China on a very fundamental level has the upper hand because of the strength of its armed forces, which are superior to those of India on many levels," Kugelman said. "India, which is intent on avoiding a conflict, is using great caution in its public messaging to avoid further antagonizing its Chinese rival. I imagine New Delhi has been particularly struck by the unusually sharp rhetoric emanating from the Chinese media."

China will not be the first to budge in this standoff because China believes its military is stronger and its position on the border is indisputable, said professor Zhang Li of Sichuan University’s Institute of South Asian Studies.

"The risk will only increase if the stand-off lingers on," Zhang said.
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
Notice how the above article just completely normalize India's action to make it sound like India and China are equally at fault here, that all they need is sit down to negotiate, to take both sides' interest to comprise bla bla.

I bet if the situation is reversed, if China went into India territory to stop a Indian road building activity the "free media" narrative would not be like this.... I mean why should we be suprised, in SCS Vietnam was actually the first nation to start to build islands there there was pure silence from the media, until China start to do it at a much larger scale, then the media take notice and totally come up with narrative that China is wrong bla bla bla.
 

timepass

Brigadier
>> 3,600 Crores Later, Made-In-India Akash Missile Fails Tests........!!!!

The Akash and its newer variant, the Akash Mk-2, are a medium-range surface-to-air missile system designed to intercept enemy aircraft and missiles at a distance of 18-30 km.

The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) is a big setback for the Make-In-India initiative which seeks to reduce India's dependence on imported arms. The report, given to parliament, says, "the missiles fell short of the target, had lower than the required velocity, and there was malfunctioning of critical units."

The Air Force has somehow refused to comment on the report.

The Akash was produced by the state-run Bharat Electronics. The auditor says that though 3,600 crores have been paid to the manufacturer, none of the missile systems are installed at the six designated sites even though it has been seven years since the contract was signed.

While the missiles were indeed delivered to air forces bases between April 2014 and June 2016 after a delay of between 6 and 18 months, the missiles were found to be deficient in quality. According to the auditor, "Out of 80 missiles received upto November 2014, 20 missiles were test fired during April-November 2014. 6 of these missiles, ie, 30 per cent, failed the test."

Source:
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
As I said CCP and PLA is now under great pressure to act
CCP might make their move after the September meeting
HT Exclusive: PLA expert says China could eject Indian troops from Donglang
Maj Gen (retd) Yao Yunzhu also said China and India are “unlikely to go to war”.
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Updated: Jul 30, 2017 21:24 IST

China could launch a limited scale military operation against Indian troops to ouster them from the Donglang region near the Sikkim sector, a People’s Liberation Army (PLA) military expert has said, adding that the “unprecedented nature” of the current dispute could make Beijing look for a strong resolution.

Both the Communist Party of China (CPC)-led government and the PLA are under “huge pressure” to take strong action against the “invasion”, Maj Gen (retd) Yao Yunzhu from PLA’s top research institution, the Academy of Military Science (AMS) told HT.

“China and India are unlikely to go to war, depending how you define war. If it is very small, if it is a limited-scale military operation against an aggression, it is possible,” she said, about ending the standoff in Donglang, now into its second month.

“So, we are talking about very specific military operational issues. What I want to say is that for this Doklam (Donglang) event, Indians have intruded, invaded Chinese territory. That is something that has to be corrected. That is what I have been stressing,” she said, adding that to the military, the “trespass” is “intolerable”.

Yao, who served in the PLA for 45 years and is now director emeritus at AMS’s Centre on China-America Defence Relations, said: “I am not going to be talk about war or military operations, limited or unlimited without a context. The context is this — not only India, any country that has invaded China (or) Chinese territory and stayed on would have to be dealt with whatever means we have, because we cannot accept Chinese territory to be invaded and occupied.”

She indicated that in case of a limited military operation, China will try not to escalate to other parts of the border.

“Let us be specific. We are talking about Doklam (Donglang) incident, not generally along the border. Because on the border we have other mechanisms (to resolve disputes). We should analyse them case by case. But Doklam is an unique case, it is an established border line, uncontested territory,” she said.

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Maj Gen (retd) Yao Yunzhu from PLA’s top research institution, the Academy of Military Science. (HT Photo)
Yao did not specify what kind of operation it could be or didn’t elaborate on the impact of the operation on the PLA.

“I will not say surgical operation, or missile strike or whatever. I will not specify….with whatever means, It has to be corrected…you have an invasion, you have to defeat that invasion,” Yao said.

President Xi Jinping on Sunday said China needs a strong military more than ever, urging building the PLA into world-class armed forces with confidence and capability to “defeat all invading enemies” and “safeguard world peace”.

According to Yao, both the CPC-led government and the PLA are “great pressure” not to back-off from the military impasse with Indian border troops.

“Both the military and the government are under great pressure…not to back-off , backing off is not an option,” she said.

Comparing the armed forces of China and India, Yao said China has a far stronger military.

“We are stronger. The Chinese military is stronger compared to the Indian military... not only in numbers of aircraft, warships, artillery pieces, tanks, we have a much stronger defence industrial base,” she said.

On the aggressive propaganda launched by the PLA and the Chinese defence ministry on releasing information about military exercises, she said the reason is both the 90th anniversary and the Donglang standoff.

“We are celebrating the 90th anniversary of the PLA. It has to do with the celebrations. It also has to do with the Doklam (Donglang) standoff…but troops on the border areas will be in high-readiness because of the standoff,” she said.
 

Lethe

Captain
A "limited scale military operation" inherently carries the risk of escalating to a broader conflict. Both parties get a vote on such matters. And if there is undoubtedly "huge pressure" on the Chinese government to act, why would one expect the pressure on the Indian government to be any less, such that they would accept a limited defeat without further escalation?

Essentially, the gamble in such a situation is that India's institutions, and the decision-makers involved, are far-sighted enough to accept a limited defeat (or find a way to de-escalate before that point), acting in the national interest rather than out of concern for one's career, the image of one's party, etc. Who here has that much confidence in the Indian government?
 
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