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tphuang

Brigadier
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well both the govt. and and the IAF tries its best ;
but this is what happens
read this
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yes, I read this entry recently. It's clearly not easy to break up a monopoly when they have entrenched lobbyist inside the gov't. But in the end, if IAF wants to have a healthy domestic aerospace industry, it has to break up the monopoly or stop protectionism. Or else, HAL will be content on locally producing foreign aircraft for eternity. But even if this continues, I think India has plenty of money for domestic projects. It's been buying Russian aircraft for years and Tejas has not been cancelled. How is Rafale going to be any different?
 

aksha

Captain
yes, I read this entry recently. It's clearly not easy to break up a monopoly when they have entrenched lobbyist inside the gov't. But in the end, if IAF wants to have a healthy domestic aerospace industry, it has to break up the monopoly or stop protectionism. Or else, HAL will be content on locally producing foreign aircraft for eternity. But even if this continues, I think India has plenty of money for domestic projects. It's been buying Russian aircraft for years and Tejas has not been cancelled. How is Rafale going to be any different?
the rafale's off the shelf price is more than half of its its price with TOT.
if the government puts its money on the rafale ,it will lead to severe constraints in the budget of the army and the navy.
besides inducting a 4.5 gen jet in at the time of the dawn of the fifth gens.

if you will remember at the time of declaring the winner of the mmrca deal,the IAF had said The EFT was the better jet, but the Rafale won it out due to overall cost being less.
but now the price of the rafale has gone up.

the rafale (if licensce produced in india) may cause the same effect on the Tejas that the Mig 21 had on the HF 24 Marut.

besides licence production will not arrest the fall in squardon levels very soon,with the first squard to be inducted in 2018.
if the rafales are bought off the shelf the the first squardon will be inducted only in 2017,unless they start renting the french air force(including pilots)


HAL is worried that with the participation of pvt industries ,they will go the same way as the Ambassador (car),and the HMT(watches).
had there been competition the Tejas might have been a better aircraft today ,not to mention produced in time.
now all funds go to HAL even if they are inefficient .

the same can be said of the shipyards,
due to the PSU's not allowing ships to be produced in pvt. shipyards , and with their dry docks being filled
the navy had to buy the Talwar class frigates from russia.

recently a shipyard wanted to participate in the LHD deal especially made for pvt. players even if its orders were stocked to the brim
 
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aksha

Captain
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India and the U.S. are negotiating a deal for the purchase of high altitude, long endurance (HALE) Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV).
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An agreement or announcement to this effect is likely when U.S. President Barack Obama visits India as the chief guest for the Republic Day ceremony next month, sources informed The Hindu.

Though the variant and the numbers are not known, it has been learnt that the UAV in question is most likely the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk, a non-combat drone and the largest unmanned aircraft system built by the U.S.

Global Hawk is a HALE Unmanned Aircraft System (UAS) with extraordinary intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities, providing near-real time, high resolution imagery of large geographical areas both during the day and night, in all types of weather.

The Global Hawk has an endurance of over 24 hours and can operate at an altitude of 60,000 feet. The U.S. has extensively deployed it in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It has further been upgraded as the MQ-4C Triton maritime surveillance platform for the U.S. Navy.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
if you will remember at the time of declaring the winner of the mmrca deal,the IAF had said The EFT was the better jet, but the Rafale won it out due to overall cost being less.
The IAF never said anything of the sort. The IAF only said they got what they have always wanted.

the rafale (if licensce produced in india) may cause the same effect on the Tejas that the Mig 21 had on the HF 24 Marut.
The Rafale is independent from LCA. Even if the IAF doubles Rafale orders, they will still buy the LCA because the requirement exists. IAF plans to increase squadron strength in the long term. I actually believe IAF will order more Rafales to be built in France at a later date. So there will be two production lines for Rafale that supply the IAF directly, the same as the Su-30MKI.

Marut failed not because of the Mig-21, it failed because the govt couldn't ensure the supply of a reasonable engine. They were shortsighted. The IAF bought both HF-24 and Su-7 at the time. Both HF-24 and Su-7 were replaced with Jaguar and Mig-27. AMCA could end up being the same as the HF-24 since ADA wants an engine that doesn't exist today. The engines are yet to be developed even in foreign countries.

recently a shipyard wanted to participate in the LHD deal especially made for pvt. players even if its orders were stocked to the brim
That is wrong too. The shipyard in question is in Cochin and they don't have orders for large military ships, and are currently the only shipyard capable of making a large ship.
 

aksha

Captain
The IAF never said anything of the sort. The IAF only said they got what they have always wanted.
well that was what most newspaprs said at that time and apparently quoting the IAF at that time.

That is wrong too. The shipyard in question is in Cochin and they don't have orders for large military ships, and are currently the only shipyard capable of making a large ship
really, and what about pipapev and larsen and tourbo .
and lets talk about security of the shipyard

this is what the person who took the pictures of the vikrant said on indian defence forum
That was extremely surprising for me as well, there is an tall hotel in the vicinity as well that also has a terrace restaurant, I believe that place would be a great place to see the ship being built from up close.
She's pretty accessible actually, they've got her right next to a public parking in Cochin.I took these with my Nikon D3200 on 01/12/14
i refuse to be fooled by these shipyards again and who never do any thing on time.

imagine ambassador had asked for a monopoly on cars produced in india saying that only they have the capability to produce them

the PSU's are scared to compete with the private units.

i beleive i already mentioned the bullet proof jackets and helmets to you in an earlier post,produced by a private company.

and competetion always creates the best products,

L&T manufactured a major parts of the Arihant ,while HSL barely did the assembling
survival of the fittest

and who art thou to say that do not have the capability.when these respective shipyards will disagree.
 
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tphuang

Brigadier
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I will just give me spill on Indian aviation here, since I might have given a couple of you hard times in other threads for going off topic and this might be the better place to talk about all things IAF.

Just looking from an outsider point of view, there is no reason the recent modernization and successes in China's military industrail complex couldn't have hjappened in India or won't have in the future in India. It does seem to me that this HAL monopoly business is a huge hindrance, but I'm not sure how you overcome that.

And all the procurement front, there seems to be a lot of conflict of interest, since HAL still makes money whether it designs the aircraft indigenously or build locally under license production. At the same time, there are always people profiting from buying off foreign companies, so local projects get the squeeze so to speak. Chinese local industries actually faced this back 10 years ago, but not as much of an issue now.

To make it clear, I don't talk down on PAK-FA because I want India to not do well or anything like that. I just don't think too highly of the aircraft because I don't think it's a stealth design and I don't agree with Russian philosophy of valuing flight performance over stealth. I think F-35 would have been a better choice for India. Rafale is an advanced enough aircraft that India could have waited for F-35 production slot to become available while inducting Rafale. And if possible, future Indian carriers would be better served to support just Rafale-M and N-LCA rather than Mig-29K.

While I've seen some Indian posters dismiss complaints that I've seen online like this one
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I actually find these complaints to make a lot of sense from watching China's past experiences with the Russians. I think engine is an issue with Russians, since 117S is an improved variant of AL-31F and it's unclear when the real next generation AL-41 will be available. Radar is an issue with Russians since there were questions on when they will be able to mass produce T/R modules recently. The Russians are just behind in electronics. And whether you look from frontal view, but especially from side and rear, I just don't see a stealth design at all. These seem to be legitimate concerns.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
well that was what most newspaprs said at that time and apparently quoting the IAF at that time.
I have followed the MRCA program since 2007 and nothing of the sort was ever said. What you are referring to is an article in ToIlet paper that said EF came in first and was dismissed by the MoD as rubbish.

really, and what about pipapev and larsen and tourbo .
They need to build it from scratch. But it gives the IN a second line.

and lets talk about security of the shipyard

this is what the person who took the pictures of the vikrant said on indian defence forum
The security is fine.

i refuse to be fooled by these shipyards again and who never do any thing on time.

imagine ambassador had asked for a monopoly on cars produced in india saying that only they have the capability to produce them

the PSU's are scared to compete with the private units.

i beleive i already mentioned the bullet proof jackets and helmets to you in an earlier post,produced by a private company.

and competetion always creates the best products,

L&T manufactured a major parts of the Arihant ,while HSL barely did the assembling
survival of the fittest

and who art thou to say that do not have the capability.when these respective shipyards will disagree.
That's fine by me. Even I want the private sector getting into defense production.

And Arihant is not a large ship. It is smaller than a destroyer. For large ships you need massive infrastructure overhaul like large cranes and a large dry dock. L&T and Pipavav will have to build one for large ships, and the LHD is their ticket to this capability.
 

aksha

Captain
I have followed the MRCA program since 2007 and nothing of the sort was ever said. What you are referring to is an article in ToIlet paper that said EF came in first and was dismissed by the MoD as rubbish.



They need to build it from scratch. But it gives the IN a second line.



The security is fine.



That's fine by me. Even I want the private sector getting into defense production.

And Arihant is not a large ship. It is smaller than a destroyer. For large ships you need massive infrastructure overhaul like large cranes and a large dry dock. L&T and Pipavav will have to build one for large ships, and the LHD is their ticket to this capability.
perhaps you should investigate the size of pipapev's dry dock,
besides if they are ready to develop it with their own money why stop them


NOTE: i am neither against the rafale nor for them.
all i am for is to get the squardon levels up
 
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tphuang

Brigadier
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Let's keep in mind the YF-22 airframe isn't exactly the same airframe as the mass produced F-22A airframe is it now?
Are you saying that PAK-FA is still at YF-22 stage (as in a concept demonstration mule)? From first flight of YF-22 to F-22A achieving IOC was 14 years. I'm not sure India wants to wait that long for FGFA.
 

aksha

Captain
And the Indian Navy is going for a new program for next generation aircraft. Both Rafale-M and F-35 B/C will be studied.
strangely an senior aviation officer on the vikramaditya told and in very certain terms that other than the LCA the only fighter the navy has an eye on is the AMCA. he also told me that the mig29k will be the last foreign fighters to serve in the navy.
 
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