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aksha

Captain
Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat
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Parrikar has said that the government must stand its ground and not give in during negotiations
In rough weather :Rafale fighter jet


NEW DELHI: The much-awaited multi-billion dollar Rafale combat aircraft deal with France has once again run into rough weather. After negotiations of almost three years, it has now hit a ‘deadlock’ with both India and France refusing to concede to the other’s demands.

When Rafale was declared the lowest bidder in January 2012, all eyes were on the inking of this deal that was touted as the ‘mother of all defence deals’. But the cost negotiation committee set up in February 2012 to work out the modalities for the deal has not reached a conclusion yet.

The newly-appointed Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and a top official of his ministry are determined to block the deal till the ministry’s demands are accepted by the French side. Though during the recent visit of French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian earlier this month Parrikar had assured he would do everything in his power to expedite the deal, he is firm that his ministry’s demands must be accepted first. According to defence ministry officials privy to developments, at a presentation on the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme a fortnight back, Parrikar said that the government must stand its ground and not give in during negotiations. Parrikar’s opinion is seconded by the Joint Secretary and Acquisition Manager (Air) Rajeev Verma, who plays a key role in the deal. Verma, a 1992 UT-cadre IAS officer, has made it clear that till the French side agrees to ministry’s demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal, say sources.

After cost escalation, the French major Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale fighter jets, has refused to take “full responsibility” for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) as per the original tender. Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore. “The ministry is in no hurry to conclude the negotiations despite what people may say. Dassault has to accept commitment mentioned in the RFP (Request for proposal),” a key defence ministry official said on the condition of anonymity.

Another ministry insider said the production sharing agreement with HAL is stuck as well. Furthermore, Dassault is not agreeing to HAL’s demand that it take responsibility for manufacture in India, regardless of French government’s pressure. It is too risky, according to a defence ministry source.

“After cost escalation, now accepting terms and conditions of the original tender have emerged as the key issue to be resolved. The RFP clearly stated that under the transfer of technology agreement, the French will have to fully comply with it and also take full responsibility of Indian manufactured fighter jets,” said a senior defence ministry official. Officials say in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (`42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (`90,000 crore). Now with inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle cost and creating assembly line, the deal has virtually crossed a whopping $20 billion.

The Air Force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits well between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 32 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired. M/s Dassault Aviation of France, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) of Rafale aircraft, emerged as L-1 bidder for procurement of Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) based on its quotation. Sources also said the Dassault India representatives have repeatedly denied meeting with the ministry officials, including Verma.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Last modern Indian FFG i precise Talwar carry 1 helo, Shivalik more big 2, 3 last Talwar get Brahmos.
A question aksha :) i have a doubt for Shivalik ssm, armed with Club or Brahmos ?

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aksha

Captain
both i think,

shivaliks have a universal launcher for cruise miisiles,so do the talwar,s at least the last 3

for example,
INS Sahyadri which participated in RIMPAC 2014 carried clubs instead of bramhos, as her commanding officer himself said
 

aksha

Captain
I would love Air force brat's and other member's view on this aircraft and its design, compared to its contemporeries in the early 1970's, and whether its death in 1982 was too early?
perhaps Asia's first supersonic fighter ,
designed by Kurt Tank ,but manufactured in India.

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I would love Air force brat's and other member's view on this aircraft and its design, compared to its contemporeries in the early 1970's, and whether its death in 1982 was too early?
perhaps Asia's first supersonic fighter ,
designed by Kurt Tank ,but manufactured in India.

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Why thank you Aksha for a very nice vote of confidence, to be honest I'm not familiar with the type, but she does bear a very strong resemblance to her contemporaries...

1st that lovely and good "aluminum", I love aluminum, I loath covering it up with old nasty camouflage, I can remember the old man coming home after hearing that USAF was going to camouflage the C-130s he flew, he was so angry, just P.O.ed to the max. so awesome aluminum work.

2nd looks like she had 4 aux tanks possible, so plenty of fuel to do what she came to do, if you will give me the official designation, I will give you a little more insight from "hillbilly engineering",,,, I guess that's how I would have to describe what we do here???

3rd, very pretty airplane, just lovely wings and inlets, these gorgeous ladies would make a man out of you, they required all your attention, all of the time. They were pilots airplanes in the sense that the inept and unaware did not live very long, they would all bite you in a heartbeat, pull to hard, fell that little nibble on the horizontal stabs and try to pull through, they would snap off in a heartbeat or sooner, recovery took lots of altitude, and some real understanding of what the game she was playing was all about?
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Many 1960's fighter color aluminum flying fast and high F-104, Mirage ... finished after, too dangerous ! :D
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Why thank you Aksha for a very nice vote of confidence, to be honest I'm not familiar with the type, but she does bear a very strong resemblance to her contemporaries...

1st that lovely and good "aluminum", I love aluminum, I loath covering it up with old nasty camouflage, I can remember the old man coming home after hearing that USAF was going to camouflage the C-130s he flew, he was so angry, just P.O.ed to the max. so awesome aluminum work.

2nd looks like she had 4 aux tanks possible, so plenty of fuel to do what she came to do, if you will give me the official designation, I will give you a little more insight from "hillbilly engineering",,,, I guess that's how I would have to describe what we do here???

3rd, very pretty airplane, just lovely wings and inlets, these gorgeous ladies would make a man out of you, they required all your attention, all of the time. They were pilots airplanes in the sense that the inept and unaware did not live very long, they would all bite you in a heartbeat, pull to hard, fell that little nibble on the horizontal stabs and try to pull through, they would snap off in a heartbeat or sooner, recovery took lots of altitude, and some real understanding of what the game she was playing was all about?

Ah?? the HF-24, a very lovely flying aeroplane, needing a little more grunt from its powerplants, very pretty, good flying, do note that it was "old school", stall speed right at 150mph with gear and flaps down, in other words a very "hot" bird", all my previous observations are of course correct. In my reading I did discover that an Indian HF-24 did shoot down a PAF F-86, which was also a very sweet flying airplane??? so it must have been very nice to fly as I didn't really find any complaints other than "underpowered", we have to wonder what she could have done with some real engines???
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Always wondered was it possible to redesign Marut into single-engined aircraft with Lyulka AL-7F (already available from Su-7 ) .
 

aksha

Captain
Always wondered was it possible to redesign Marut into single-engined aircraft with Lyulka AL-7F (already available from Su-7 ) .

well they did try out some modifications, but with IAF becoming more demanding, and the arrival and licence production of the mig21 in the 1970's ,lead to loss of of interest in the aircraft, decay of the experience in HAL

It became so bad that that DRDO's ADA was chosen to design tejas (HAL designed the Marut,even though Kurt Tank (
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) was the head of the designing team ).


the govt of the time played a big role in its demise ,not to mention the IAF.

and Tejas had to be developed from the scratch.

no wonder the indian forums call the 1970's and 1980's as the lost ages in indian aeronautical technology.
(HAL ended up being a screwdriver engineers during that time )

many of them also fear that the Dassault Rafale will have a similar effect on the Tejas that the Mig 21 had on the Marut
 
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