Indian Economics thread.

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PiSigma

"the engineer"
Those who tout India as the next China tend to omit one key factor - the big gap in education between the two countries. China has a way better education system in both depth and breadth than that of India.

In higher education, China leaves India behind by a large distance. In these popular rankings, not only there are more Chinese universities ranked at the top, their ratings are way ahead of the Indian ones:

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The Chinese universities are doing even better in subject ratings, according to:
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We don't even need to bring up the embarassingly low literacy rate of India.

Viet Nam is another hot pick by some as the contender for the next economical powerhouse. It has much higher literacy rate than India, even close to China's. However the Vietnamese universities are doing much worse in ratings and the number of graduates annually. The country still has much to catch up in both quality and quantity in higher education.
I got a Vietnamese co-op student working for me right now (bachelor from Vietnam, master from university of Toronto) with 10 years of experience working for Viet state owned oil and gas company. Terrible English skills, and not too bright. With 10 years of experience should be considered a senior engineer, but I have better new grads than her. I already told her hiring manager not to hire her back....
 

InfamousMeow

Junior Member
Registered Member
India's per capita GDP is on track to exceed the pre-Covid level this year. But the recovery is "K-shaped", meaning that the rich are doing better than ever and the poor worse.

Ultimately, the old curse for India is that their economic model was always top-heavy. IT, pharma and finance. Jobs for the small, educated elite. China chose a "mass manufacturing" strategy and only worried about the high-end after many decades.

We can clearly see which strategy was the winning one.
I think there is no doubt which one is better even from the start. The thing is "China chose" the working strategy, and India wasn't able to choose the same strategy because China started earlier and was way more equipped and qualified to succeed off of such a strategy. Actually, India tried but failed to be the world factory, and all the fanfares about Indian high-tech was just a huge dose of copium taken by the Indian populace.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
India's per capita GDP is on track to exceed the pre-Covid level this year. But the recovery is "K-shaped", meaning that the rich are doing better than ever and the poor worse.

Ultimately, the old curse for India is that their economic model was always top-heavy. IT, pharma and finance. Jobs for the small, educated elite. China chose a "mass manufacturing" strategy and only worried about the high-end after many decades.

We can clearly see which strategy was the winning one.
Indeed. China just chose a tried and proven economic strategy. Build a manufacturing economy first, build genuine wealth, and then the service economy would emerge to support that newfound wealth. Then after that, transition to high-tech manufacturing, and expand further, the service economy. This has also been true in Europe, USA, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore. A strong manufacturing economy provides a strong foundation for the service economy to stand on top. It is indeed a winning strategy that is obvious to almost everyone, but India.

India is a strange case. It boasts a big service economy, and a limited high-tech industry in pharma. But India does not have a strong manufacturing economy. Without that big manufacturing economy, the service economy can only grow so much from domestic consumption. Hence, India heavily 'exports' its the service economy to the developed world. For that, India has tremendous fortune with its large English-speaking middle-class to elite populace, and the arrival of the internet. But such an economy is imbalanced. It heavily benefits the educated, and the upper class. But provides extremely limited opportunities for the less educated, and the lower class. When the majority of India are from the lowly-educated lower class, this leaves a massive demographic in stagnation. The Indian economy could only truly grow so much. So what we see now is that India, like America would mostly 'grow' via their richest people growing richer. To me, that is not true economic prosperity, that looks like a dystopian society that only the Jai Hinds can live with.

But India forgets that the service economy is only best at building up 'soft skills' like finance, people skills and partially, IT. The 'hard skills' like engineering, and STEM cannot be easily obtained in a service economy. We see India is competitive at exporting CEOs, managers, pharmaceuticals, IT services, and call centers. But India is far from competitive in exporting ships, machinery, military arms, construction, and transport vehicles. All major world-class economies have at least some competitive manufacturing exports. Even the USA and Britain can export something at least. Like GE MRI machines, Qualcomm chips, and Rolls-Royce turbine engines.

P.S.: India likes to boast about its CEO and manager exports. But are Indian CEOs and managers really that impressive? What have they done better than their non-Indian peers other than just being good at maintaining the status quo and politicking? Lisa Su (a Taiwanese-American), the CEO of AMD was able to bring AMD back to being a competitive CPU manufacturer again. While Intel fired its Chief Engineer, Murthy Renduchintala in 2020 for production failures:

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Maintaining that innovative advantage became Renduchintala’s job when Swan promoted him to the chief engineering role, but any sense of progress regaining its edge was destroyed last week when the company said the latest technique for building the most advanced semiconductors was a year behind schedule.
In public appearances and interviews, Renduchintala is garrulous and exudes confidence, unafraid to dominate the conversation. He wasn’t on last week’s earnings conference call, where Swan was forced to defend Intel’s position and earnings amid constant questions from analysts about the manufacturing delays and Intel’s plans to mitigate them.
Good at talking, confident, and unafraid to dominate the conversation. But when it comes to results, disappointing. When it comes to taking responsibility for failure, missing in action. We all have seen a good amount of Indian CEOs, managers, and politicians who does the exact same things. Hire Indians if you must, but only the genuinely good ones. Nevertheless, if you still prefer to have these kinds of charismatic, ego-massaging, conmen to run your proud companies, then best of luck!
 
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mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Those who tout India as the next China tend to omit one key factor - the big gap in education between the two countries. China has a way better education system in both depth and breadth than that of India.

In higher education, China leaves India behind by a large distance. In these popular rankings, not only there are more Chinese universities ranked at the top, their ratings are way ahead of the Indian ones:


Viet Nam is another hot pick by some as the contender for the next economical powerhouse. It has much higher literacy rate than India, even close to China's. However the Vietnamese universities are doing much worse in ratings and the number of graduates annually. The country still has much to catch up in both quality and quantity in higher education.
University rankings are a poor signal. Germany has much lower university rankings than the UK, yet is richer. It's more relevant to look at PISA. India participated in the 2009 "special round" where it scored second to last. Fluency in English is only true for 5% of Indians, at most. These are the elite and it's the type of Indians you are likely to encounter online, so it gives a massively skewed impression.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think there is no doubt which one is better even from the start. The thing is "China chose" the working strategy, and India wasn't able to choose the same strategy because China started earlier and was way more equipped and qualified to succeed off of such a strategy. Actually, India tried but failed to be the world factory, and all the fanfares about Indian high-tech was just a huge dose of copium taken by the Indian populace.
India never seriously tried to be a manufacturing powerhouse because even in manufacturing, it has been focusing on capital-intensive and skill-intensive activity. It can manufacture its own rockets but it can't win textile business away from Bangladesh. This is the same old curse once again: elite bias.

It's an interesting sociological question why Indian economic activity has been so elite-biased, whether in services or in industry. My impression, as an outsider, is that it has a lot to do with caste. Indian elites mostly just structured the state to maximise the benefits of their own offspring (educated, fluent in English, well-off) and they neglected the poor masses.

China doesn't have any equivalent to a caste system, so elites pursued policies that were much more egalitarian. It may sound funny to read this today, but in the 1950s and 1960s if you wanted to be educated cheaply at a high quality university, you went to India (IITs, IIMs). No Chinese university was even close. But China chose to focus on educating its masses and invested much more in basic education, which later helped propel the mass manufacturing phase. India never invested in its primary education and it has been paying the price ever since.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Good at talking, confident, and unafraid to dominate the conversation. But when it comes to results, disappointing. When it comes to taking responsibility for failure, missing in action. We all have seen a good amount of Indian CEOs, managers, and politicians who does the exact same things. Hire Indians if you must, but only the genuinely good ones. Nevertheless, if you still prefer to have these kinds of charismatic, ego-massaging, conmen to run your proud companies, then best of luck!
Someone said that India plays the best away game (diaspora) while China plays the best home game (national economy).

BTW, there's an interesting paper on why Indians get promoted much more than East Asians in the West:

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
India never seriously tried to be a manufacturing powerhouse because even in manufacturing, it has been focusing on capital-intensive and skill-intensive activity. It can manufacture its own rockets but it can't win textile business away from Bangladesh. This is the same old curse once again: elite bias.

It's an interesting sociological question why Indian economic activity has been so elite-biased, whether in services or in industry. My impression, as an outsider, is that it has a lot to do with caste. Indian elites mostly just structured the state to maximise the benefits of their own offspring (educated, fluent in English, well-off) and they neglected the poor masses.

China doesn't have any equivalent to a caste system, so elites pursued policies that were much more egalitarian. It may sound funny to read this today, but in the 1950s and 1960s if you wanted to be educated cheaply at a high quality university, you went to India (IITs, IIMs). No Chinese university was even close. But China chose to focus on educating its masses and invested much more in basic education, which later helped propel the mass manufacturing phase. India never invested in its primary education and it has been paying the price ever since.

Even before investing in primary education, you have to address the hunger issue first.
35% of children are underweight and 38% are growth stunted.
Plus we've previously discussed how child malnutrition in India has somehow gotten worse in the past 10 years

The fourth round of NFHS, conducted in 2015-2016, found that the prevalence of underweight, stunted and wasted children under five was at 35.7, 38.4 and 21.0 per cent.

downtoearth.org.in/blog/health/child-malnutrition-in-india-a-systemic-failure-76507
 

KampfAlwin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Even before investing in primary education, you have to address the hunger issue first.
35% of children are underweight and 38% are growth stunted.
Plus we've previously discussed how child malnutrition in India has somehow gotten worse in the past 10 years
That statistic is even more sad when you find out India exports MORE food than it imports. There are Indian nationalists who are proud of that fact and mock China for being a net importer of food, which apparently makes them 'food insecure'
 

SanWenYu

Senior Member
Registered Member
University rankings are a poor signal. Germany has much lower university rankings than the UK, yet is richer. It's more relevant to look at PISA. India participated in the 2009 "special round" where it scored second to last. Fluency in English is only true for 5% of Indians, at most. These are the elite and it's the type of Indians you are likely to encounter online, so it gives a massively skewed impression.

No I did not say university rankings matter. I used the rankings and ratings as the indication of the quality of one country's higher eduction vs the others.

That analysis I
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above does have a paragraph about the German universities:
There is a similar trend for Germany, albeit in relation to a different group of subjects, with the data showing that the country has become a centre of excellence compared with its main competitors in a handful of areas: mechanical engineering (A), mechanics (A), ecology (A), agricultural engineering (A) and naval architecture and ocean engineering (A-). These are all areas where institutions in Germany achieve a higher grade, on average, than their counterparts in the UK, US, Canada, Australia and China.
You can see where the German universities are good at is where the country's economy is leading over the world. Coincidence?

We might need to dig into the subject ratings of the UK universities to find why UK is not as rich as Germany even though the former's universities are ranked overall better than the latter's. As we are off-topic already, I leave it to the readers.

Performance of a country's universities and colleges, in STEM in particular, has a strong correlation with its economic competitiveness, for two reasons. Universities and colleges carry out a lot of R&D that can benefit the industries. More importantly, they are where the younger generations of scientists and engineers grow. Good higher education institutions and strong industries can support each other and form a cycle of positive feedback.

In general, universities and colleges of a country determine the quality of the country's white-collar work force. Primary and secondary schools decide the blue-collar workers. Your example where the Indian participants' low scores in PISA, on one hand, is telling the poor quality of the input to their universities and colleges. On the other hand, it shows how bad even their blue-collar workers.

All in all, education in India as is will not be able to support the country's dream of becoming a superpower soon.
 
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