Hong-Kong Protests


plawolf

Brigadier
I agree with the idea that HK was an experiment by China to see what could be gained under a western democratic model.

West was painted into a corner with HK. Thatcher tried her best to hang onto HK, proposing all kinds of left-field ideas like "sharing" HK or making another 99-year lease. These were obviously all rejected. If they didn't handover HK, then basically it proved that they were looking to continue the exploitative colonial economic model. Furthermore, this risked fighting a war, which despite an overwhelming technological advantage at the time, it would be far riskier than something like the contemporary Desert Storm. So as you mention, the best they could do was hand back HK and hopefully HK could act like a Trojan Horse. As you mention, adopting the western model is not simply a matter of "electing government", but rather a general subservience to American interests in exchange for "a cut of the pie".

After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was an overwhelming idea amongst Western intellectuals that the western liberalism "had won". This was popularized by Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History". The fall of the Chinese Communist Party would be inevitable, especially with Tiananmen fresh in people's memory. The entry into WTO would accelerate the decline as it was believed that the government and state-owned industries would not be nimble enough to adapt and compete to the opening up. To be fair, they had plenty of reasons to believe this, productivity, mechanization, technological sophistication were all very low. How could China catch up being so far behind? See Jim Mann's book "Beijing Jeep" to illustrate how most American business people saw China.

So with this backdrop, basically for 20 years, HK was left alone by the Chinese central government and was not an issue for Western governments. There was a still a belief that Russia's struggles adapting to the new global economy would soon play out in China. However, basically when Obama took power, it was increasingly obvious that the system in China was adapting and actually thriving. The country had managed to turn the tide on exploitative manufacturing and was able to innovate in fields like high speed rail. High speed rail would be less polluting (especially with the move away from coal), less dependent on foreign imports (both technological and oil), and cheaper to run per capita. The main downside being slower, but when looking at total travel time (including time to get to the airport and crossing security), you are only losing an hour or 2 for plane trips under 6 hours. Although high speed rail in itself is not anything super special, at this time, Boeing was growing fat and rich from Chinese airline purchases, and by association GE. It was a real wake up call that China was moving forward on its own terms. So you also see very quickly that the western machinery was mobilized against the HSR system at this time. 2011 was the Wenzhou train crash, and all media cried out about officials covering up safety defects, the downfalls of intellectual property theft, etc. etc. The reality is that at some point an accident is inevitable, that is the sad truth.

What is the point of talking about HSR? HSR is the road that leads into the rise of western interference in HK. The timing of the Wenzhou train accident was seen as very fortuitous for western strategists. They seized on the timing as construction had only just started at the time. They quickly mobilized their army of "enlightened intellectuals". According to Joshua Wong himself, this was his first protest. So we can see the younger generation cutting their teeth for their benefactors here. From the safety issues, then they moved onto sovereignty issues. They made a big deal about mainland officers stationed there to do customs clearance. In actuality, this is a very standard practice by the USA itself.

However, I don't think that independence was a serious end goal. The main goal here is to maintain the divide between HK and mainland. The next step was fomenting the Umbrella and Occupy protests and solidifying the newly installed opposition players (Martin Lee and Jimmy Lai were already old). The same thing happened in Taiwan with much greater success for American interests. Ma Yingjeou was about to cap off his presidency with the Free Trade agreement with mainland when it was derailed by the contemporaneous Sunflower protests. Very quickly American interests moved to destroy relations with the mainland which had been on the rise.

These are the hallmarks of typical backhanded American geopolitical moves. First the problem is created by them, then they criticize the affected country for "silencing the opposition" or whatever nonsense. This exact playbook was also seen in Ukraine where US agitation forced a coup, then blamed Russia for destabilizing the region and intimidating Ukraine.
Broadly agree with most of what you said, expect for a few key points.

Firstly, I think that western malevolent forces were busy at work to create their Fifth Column foot soldiers long before 2011. Basically it started as soon as the British agreed to hand back HK.

On top the the obvious money grab projects that everyone noticed, there were a lot of other moves, most of which were not noticed or picked up.

You have effective sleeper cells who moved into key areas like education, judiciary, media and the like and started to promote anti-Chinese views.

Vietnamese Wong might have went to his first protest in 2011, but the teachers that radicalised him would have been radicalised themselves a whole generation before from those first seeder cells. After which it grew exponentially with each generation.

These forces were not created for any specific operation, but rather were to artificially create an entirely new segment of society (as evidenced by the fact that the most virulently anti-Chinese condoms were all born after handover) who’s sole distinguishing feature is a general western worship and anti-China world view.

They could be relied upon as an election base to form a political party to try to paralysis HK government while they are in opposition and try to use that to generate popular support for ‘reform’, as a pretext to seize power and basically do the west’s bidding and maintain their interests in HK.

This was a long conn and is still generations away from reaching their ultimate goal, but was already starting to bear bitter fruit for China.

Trump fucked it all up because he wanted bargaining chips to win his trade war with China, and ordered the CIA to go the colour revolution route instead to produce immediate results that he could try and leverage.

Best case scenario for Trump was that he snap his fingers and HK descents into chaos and it panics Beijing so much (remember all the ridiculous western MSM early editorials suggesting how mainland cities would rise up in support of HK?) that they basically cave to Trump’s fantastical trade demands so Trump would snap all the cockroaches back into their holes once more.

The fall back was that Beijing panics and overreacts and send in the troops to butcher all the condoms in live TV and gives Trump enough leverage to force the EU into effectively joining his trade war against China by imposing massive and sweeping sanctions on all trade with China.

Problem for Trump was that China’s leaders were a lot more mature and capable than he bargained for, and they managed to end the chaos with no loss of life and minimal use of police force.

The crowing irony was that it wasn’t mainland Chinese cities that rose up in revolt following HK’s lead, but instead American cities started to burn as BLM arose, much to the consternation of Trump and the condoms rioting in HK, because they are overwhelmingly white-worshipping, self-hating racists at heart and just absolutely detested being compared to and lumped together with the ‘inferior blacks’.
 

Gatekeeper

Colonel
Registered Member
About time I say! I mean could you imagine the U.K. or US having a Chinese lawyer as the head of their association? Can you think of the outcry from these hypocritical MSM?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Beijing calls Hong Kong bar association chief an ‘anti-China politician’​

Authorities lambast British-born Paul Harris for criticising treatment of pro-democracy campaigners

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Taipei

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Tue 27 Apr 2021 07.10 EDT

Rest of the news article from the guardian:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Team Blue

Junior Member
Registered Member
The worst mistake Hong Kongers did was reject the mainland the way too many did. Seems to me, that allowed an island mentality to develop, that only what they thought mattered, and all outside thoughts do not matter.
This is what was baffling to me. There's all sorts of things I really don't like about my own government but I don't deny they're the rightful leaders. (Even if it was done on the exploitation and blood of minorities and poor).
 

voyager1

Senior Member
Registered Member
About time I say! I mean could you imagine the U.K. or US having a Chinese lawyer as the head of their association? Can you think of the outcry from these hypocritical MSM?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Beijing calls Hong Kong bar association chief an ‘anti-China politician’​

Authorities lambast British-born Paul Harris for criticising treatment of pro-democracy campaigners

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Taipei

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Tue 27 Apr 2021 07.10 EDT

Rest of the news article from the guardian:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Finally!
Took them long enough to demand the resignation of that 5th column idiot.

What other country has foreign nationals in positions like these? Treason.

Deport him
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
Broadly agree with most of what you said, expect for a few key points.

Firstly, I think that western malevolent forces were busy at work to create their Fifth Column foot soldiers long before 2011. Basically it started as soon as the British agreed to hand back HK.

On top the the obvious money grab projects that everyone noticed, there were a lot of other moves, most of which were not noticed or picked up.

You have effective sleeper cells who moved into key areas like education, judiciary, media and the like and started to promote anti-Chinese views.

Vietnamese Wong might have went to his first protest in 2011, but the teachers that radicalised him would have been radicalised themselves a whole generation before from those first seeder cells. After which it grew exponentially with each generation.

These forces were not created for any specific operation, but rather were to artificially create an entirely new segment of society (as evidenced by the fact that the most virulently anti-Chinese condoms were all born after handover) who’s sole distinguishing feature is a general western worship and anti-China world view.

They could be relied upon as an election base to form a political party to try to paralysis HK government while they are in opposition and try to use that to generate popular support for ‘reform’, as a pretext to seize power and basically do the west’s bidding and maintain their interests in HK.

This was a long conn and is still generations away from reaching their ultimate goal, but was already starting to bear bitter fruit for China.

Trump fucked it all up because he wanted bargaining chips to win his trade war with China, and ordered the CIA to go the colour revolution route instead to produce immediate results that he could try and leverage.

Best case scenario for Trump was that he snap his fingers and HK descents into chaos and it panics Beijing so much (remember all the ridiculous western MSM early editorials suggesting how mainland cities would rise up in support of HK?) that they basically cave to Trump’s fantastical trade demands so Trump would snap all the cockroaches back into their holes once more.

The fall back was that Beijing panics and overreacts and send in the troops to butcher all the condoms in live TV and gives Trump enough leverage to force the EU into effectively joining his trade war against China by imposing massive and sweeping sanctions on all trade with China.

Problem for Trump was that China’s leaders were a lot more mature and capable than he bargained for, and they managed to end the chaos with no loss of life and minimal use of police force.

The crowing irony was that it wasn’t mainland Chinese cities that rose up in revolt following HK’s lead, but instead American cities started to burn as BLM arose, much to the consternation of Trump and the condoms rioting in HK, because they are overwhelmingly white-worshipping, self-hating racists at heart and just absolutely detested being compared to and lumped together with the ‘inferior blacks’.
Definitely agree that there were sleepers, that's why I mentioned the "release of the army of 'enlightened intellectuals'". Suddenly all these experts in democracy appear and "fight for rights" etc. I just think that they seized on the timing because the HSR was a major infrastructure project that would further enhance the connections between mainland and HK.

Greater Bay Area is the next step of integration for HK-Macau-SZ. Once the transport connections mature, the lines between mainlander and HKer are blurred. If I can't afford a house in HK, why don't I move to some cheaper place in mainland and hop on the express train? This is kind of the holy grail for all kinds of infrastructure plan, not just China. So the timing of the Wenzhou train crash and the commencement of the building of the train line conveniently intersected. There was some success too for the anti-China side, the completion of the HK section was 5 years behind the mainland section.

Personally, I cannot stand the MSM coverage and general Western attitudes towards HK (which are influenced by MSM). Just because something is "popular", doesn't make it democratic. Conveniently ignoring all the parallels between the rioters and the "scary alt-right" at home is ridiculous.
 

steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
horse said:
The worst mistake Hong Kongers did was reject the mainland the way too many did. Seems to me, that allowed an island mentality to develop, that only what they thought mattered, and all outside thoughts do not matter.

Well, the Konger see themselves as "House Slaves" and looked upon the uppity "field slaves" with distain and mostly envy.

It's a natural emotional bridge that many have to cross when confronted with observations and conditions contrary to their accepted dogma.

It will happen with Kongs first, followed by Korean, then Japanese, eventually American....... and lastly the Taiwanese.
 

voyager1

Senior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
  • Chinese University survey polled residents between 15 and 30 years of age, and found 57.5 per cent want to emigrate if possible
  • Optimism over city’s future also dropped, with respondents giving an average score of 2.95 out of 10
"Just make violent protests illegal, poof problem solved"

Yes very good news that over half of your young want to leave. And then that 3/10 score for future hope

Very good news for Beijing. I am sure that now they made violence illegal these "want to leave, but dont have money" and "no hope for the future" people will surely not resort to violence in a few years time if things dont get better, right?.......
 

Bellum_Romanum

Junior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Just make violent protests illegal, poof problem solved"

Yes very good news that over half of your young want to leave. And then that 3/10 score for future hope

Very good news for Beijing. I am sure that now they made violence illegal these "want to leave, but dont have money" and "no hope for the future" people will surely not resort to violence in a few years time if things dont get better, right?.......
The poll was conducted months after the NSL law has been passed and considering the already elitist and distorted attitude most Hong Kongers feel about the mainland and the CPC, am frankly surprised that the negative views aren't that high. You and I can't expect the Hong Kongers to just lay down and accept their new reality overnight do you? It'll take time for Hong Kong government with the firm assistance from the mainland and for the Hong Kong people to warm up to their new reality, and I will say a better reality.

If the CPC can manage to improve the economic situation of Xinjiang (the epicenter of separatist, violent unrest, and terrorism) then I don't see why the same result can't be replicated and improved upon in Hong Kong when an average but well versed Asian like yourself can diagnose the issues from outside looking in. Change does not happen overnight, It'll take a sustained effort from all levers and levels of government of Hong Kong and the CPC along with the cooperation of Hong Kongers to see the change they deserve which is a thriving cosmopolitan city with a diverse population albeit minus the cockroaches.
 
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Just make violent protests illegal, poof problem solved"

Yes very good news that over half of your young want to leave. And then that 3/10 score for future hope

Very good news for Beijing. I am sure that now they made violence illegal these "want to leave, but dont have money" and "no hope for the future" people will surely not resort to violence in a few years time if things dont get better, right?.......
Hey, you poll 1,000 kids how they feel about their parents after they get their asses whooped as punishment for screwing up and you think the results are gonna look good? "Oh gosh! Half of these kids are crying and say they want to never see their parents again!" Then what happens? The parents keep dishing out the punishments and the kids behave better and better until they become upstanding adults with bright careers thanking their parents. On the other hand, if you want to make them happy little kids, never yelling at them never hitting them, feed them cotton candy and ice cream for dinner and you'll get high ratings from the little brats, all the way up to the point where they roam the streets as druggies and minimum wage workers/welfare queens getting into bar fights.

Hong Kong's got a future and it's gonna be shaped by Chinese discipline.
 

horse

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, the Konger see themselves as "House Slaves" and looked upon the uppity "field slaves" with distain and mostly envy.

It's a natural emotional bridge that many have to cross when confronted with observations and conditions contrary to their accepted dogma.

It will happen with Kongs first, followed by Korean, then Japanese, eventually American....... and lastly the Taiwanese.
Right on man! LOL!

Actually, I was trying to develop another angle to view this.

It is what we do. At Qing Ming, we go sweep the grave stones, give sacrifices during the ritual. Worship the ancestors and spirits. Bye shun, right.

The Cantonese mind, still has not shaken off all the ancient beliefs, you Bye Shun, and maybe the spirits will give you something in return.

The Opium War was bad. Colonialism was bad. The English are bad. Yet, there they were on the streets of Hong Kong, Chinese protesting by raising the Union Jack and the old colonial flag. Obviously that was Bye Shun to their deities.

Their deities never gave anything back. In the end, their deities all ran away, and they must face jail time alone. That is unforgivable! That is it!

I go Bye Shun and I get nothing back? That is unacceptable!

Those guys did not get crushed once, they got crushed twice.

That was why most of them could not even run. They just waited to be arrested, and meekly they were taken away. They were crushed. They thought they were doing the filial thing the Bye Shun and they were crushed instead.

When your own gods reject you, your are probably condemned in this life anyways. No point in running. That's it, game over!

:D
 

Top