Hong-Kong Protests


Gatekeeper

Major
Registered Member
It's unbelievable that the A-Team member prove he lives in an alternative universe.

From Meng wanzhou to Hong Kong property prices to rights of citizens when under arrest from the police. Where do we start.

Well for a start. Meng Wanzhou' s arrest for alleged 'crime' committed outside a country's jurisdiction. Imagine that China arrest someone in another country because that someone allegedly committed a crime in a third country against China. Mmm. I bet he'll be the first one to complain.

Then he ranted about property prices making Hong Kongers despair because they can't get on the property ladder. Just what world does he live on? Got news for you, Hong Kong's property prices is nothing new. It was like that under your Lord and master, the British. In fact it is worse. At least they are no shanty towns now, which means government is providing shelter over someone's head. Unlike under the British, shanty towns were plenty. In fact it was the shanty town fire of 1953 that members of my family were nearly killed from. Where's your family? Living safe and comfortable in the UK?

Then this takes the biscuit, he ranted about how one would want recourse if one was wrongly arrested. Etc without a hint of irony. Well all I can say is:

I can't breathe.
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's tangible for Meng Wanzhou. Due to Canada's independent judiciary and good legal rights, not only has she been granted the right to stay out on parole whilst her extradition proceedings are ongoing, but they've been very detailed and methodical, ongoing for more than a year now. If she'd been in China facing extradition to Thailand, she'd have been on a plane very quickly.

Contrast that with Cheng Lei who has been placed in "residential surveillance". No one apart from the Chinese state knows where she is, which also suggests she doesn't have access to a lawyer. The whole thing is bizarre given she worked for CGTN and wasn't exactly a controversial character. But she's clearly annoyed someone powerful, so now she has no rights.



Briefly on Hong Kong, things haven't been that great since 1997. Property prices have skyrocketed and wages haven't kept up. Maybe there was a short-lived blip where poverty rates went down, but relative poverty is bad. Even the HK government admits that over 1 million people in the city are below the poverty line.

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As for mainland China, things have got significantly better for city dwellers for sure. But the end of the iron ricebowl also hit rural communities. The idea that (mainland) China has or is on course to eliminate poverty is just not true. The CCP sets the poverty rate at 2,300 yuan a year. That's less than $1 a day. Whereas the World Bank defines "extreme poverty" as having less than $1.90 a day.

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I can understand why some people believe what the CCP is saying about ending poverty, but when you look at the numbers the position isn't justifiable.



Other people's ability to criticise Trudeau doesn't take food out of your family's mouths or take away your home. Just because you don't feel the need for a right doesn't mean it's ok to deny it to others.

That's why countries like Canada have certain rights and freedoms. They're not custom-made to look out for you and your family, they're there to protect anyone who needs them. The fact you don't need a particular right at this very moment does not mean you would not want to benefit from it in the future.

For example, I can understand if you tell me you've never been arrested by the police and don't think you ever will be - I haven't been arrested either. However, if you were arrested by the police and charged in error or maliciously with a crime you didn't commit, you would definitely want the right to:

1. seek bail and not have it automatically refused by a judge because that was government policy/the government didn't like you;
2. have access to and select your own lawyer, rather than have one appointed by the state who told you to plead guilty because that's what the state tells them to tell you;
3. cross-examine all witnesses and see all evidence; and
4. have your case decided by a jury and judge that were independent and would not convict you just because the police said you were guilty.

This would be especially the case if it was your partner or child. It's simply not credible that you would be content with the Chinese system of "if you get charged, you're fked" and tell them it was for the greater good.



Not if the police take away your passport and/or issue you with an exit ban. The issue isn't just that the CCP doesn't want you saying bad things about them in China, it's that they usually won't let you leave if they find out about it, because they want to intimidate people staying in China.
Meng Wanzhou, you couldn't have picked a worse example!
First, she is only charged with what is widely seen as trumped up political charges. Fraud relating to sanctions that aren't even enforceable in Canada! As an aside, she is accused of defrauding HSBC, the preferred bank of terrorists and drug cartels, as if they didn't know what they were getting into!
Second, her being out on bail is only due to her deep, deep pockets! Being a billionaire's daughter meant she literally paid for her freedom. The court allows her to go about Vancouver because she is paying for her own monitoring. Someone without those resources would just be rotting in a holding jail.
Third, high profile cases are not evidence of anything anyway. Simple math, per capita there are less people in prison in China than the USA. Even if you start factoring in alleged abuses.
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Things haven't been great since 1997, great. Thanks for the news update, maybe change your name to Mr. CNN. You know in Toronto, it is the same thing. People complaining they can't buy properties at a reasonable price. Surprise it is also happening in London too.
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This has nothing to do with CCP, nothing to do with HK government, freedom, or democracy. This is capitalist economics at work.

When did I say anything about denying rights?

Your theories are great, but they are just that, theories.

These are facts.
Most people who want to leave China, can and do.
Poor people in western countries are wrongfully charged with crimes all the time and do not have the means to effectively defend themselves and are at the mercy of the system.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
First, she is only charged with what is widely seen as trumped up political charges.
In which case she may not even be extradited. If she'd been arrested in China and an allied state had asked for her to be extradited, she'd have been on the plane already. Whether the offence is something that can get her extradited is for the independent judge (and appeal judges) to decide.

Second, her being out on bail is only due to her deep, deep pockets!
Bail is set according to one's wealth and the severity of the cime, as it's usually designed to get you to obey the bail conditions - i.e. you stump up an amount of money you're not going to want to lose. If you'd been accused of a crime in Canada your bail would have been a lot less.

For example, last year a woman accused of murdering her own child was granted bail of just $25,000.

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Simple math, per capita there are less people in prison in China than the USA.
That doesn't really tell you anything except possibly more crimes per capita are commited in the US, or that China is bad at detecting crimes.

The conviction rate is what counts if you're charged with a crime you didn't commit. In Canada the conviction rate is about 60%. In China it's 99.9%.

Things haven't been great since 1997, great. Thanks for the news update, maybe change your name to Mr. CNN.
You implied that the CCP was solving or had solved poverty in Hong Kong since the handover. Would you have preferred if I'd said the poverty rate in HK was "terrible"? Maybe you think 20% of HK people being in poverty isn't a problem.

You know in Toronto, it is the same thing. People complaining they can't buy properties at a reasonable price.
The poverty rate in Canada is less than half that in Hong Kong.

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This has nothing to do with CCP, nothing to do with HK government, freedom, or democracy. This is capitalist economics at work.
Then why is the poverty rate significantly worse in HK than Canada?

When did I say anything about denying rights?
Because rights are conferred on all citizens. If you say "these rights are worthless, they're not needed and I support a government that doesn't offer them" your neighbours don't get them either.

Your theories are great, but they are just that, theories.
The fact that the CCP has adopted a poverty rate way below the value recommended by international institutions like the World Bank is a fact, not a theory.

Poor people in western countries are wrongfully charged with crimes all the time and do not have the means to effectively defend themselves and are at the mercy of the system.
See above. The conviction rate in China is effectively 100%, whereas people in countries like Canada have a reasonable chance of getting off. Also whilst poor people in developed countries may find it hard to get good representation, at least Canada and others have legal aid - whereas in China it doesn't make a difference because your CCP-approved lawyer isn't going to try to defend you that hard in case they get punished too.
 

horse

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your theories are great, but they are just that, theories.

These are facts.
Most people who want to leave China, can and do.
Poor people in western countries are wrongfully charged with crimes all the time and do not have the means to effectively defend themselves and are at the mercy of the system.
Yup, cannot agree more.

Dogma is dogma.

Fact is fact.

Seek truth from fact.

That is how China is different from the West.

In the West, dogma is truth.

Does not matter if you are a reactionary or a Liberal, your dogma is the truth.

That is why the guy or committee who runs this place is wise, when they want people to refrain from political discussions.

It would be like dogma city around here, hehe.

Bow wow!

:D
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
In which case she may not even be extradited. If she'd been arrested in China and an allied state had asked for her to be extradited, she'd have been on the plane already. Whether the offence is something that can get her extradited is for the independent judge (and appeal judges) to decide.
Again, she is stuck in a foreign country for more than a year. Just because her conditions are not so bad, doesn't make it fair.

Bail is set according to one's wealth and the severity of the cime, as it's usually designed to get you to obey the bail conditions - i.e. you stump up an amount of money you're not going to want to lose. If you'd been accused of a crime in Canada your bail would have been a lot less.
Again, just theory. Many people cannot afford bail and are just remanded into custody.

That doesn't really tell you anything except possibly more crimes per capita are commited in the US, or that China is bad at detecting crimes.

The conviction rate is what counts if you're charged with a crime you didn't commit. In Canada the conviction rate is about 60%. In China it's 99.9%.



You implied that the CCP was solving or had solved poverty in Hong Kong since the handover. Would you have preferred if I'd said the poverty rate in HK was "terrible"? Maybe you think 20% of HK people being in poverty isn't a problem.



The poverty rate in Canada is less than half that in Hong Kong.

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Then why is the poverty rate significantly worse in HK than Canada?



Because rights are conferred on all citizens. If you say "these rights are worthless, they're not needed and I support a government that doesn't offer them" your neighbours don't get them either.



The fact that the CCP has adopted a poverty rate way below the value recommended by international institutions like the World Bank is a fact, not a theory.



See above. The conviction rate in China is effectively 100%, whereas people in countries like Canada have a reasonable chance of getting off. Also whilst poor people in developed countries may find it hard to get good representation, at least Canada and others have legal aid - whereas in China it doesn't make a difference because your CCP-approved lawyer isn't going to try to defend you that hard in case they get punished too.
Actually, I merely posted my travel observations and the changes that I saw. I mentioned CCP exactly once in passing at the very end of my original post. Nor did I ever say rights under the law were "worthless" or that I even supported CCP policies.

What I did suggest is that if you can't vote at a ballot box, you can vote with your feet. I would further argue that most people that concerned about politics is probably in an advantageous socio-economic position to do so.

I also suggested there is a price to pay to improve livelihoods.

I also never implied that CCP improved livelihood in HK, in fact I said that HK stagnated (“HK no longer has that modern feeling”).
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Again, she is stuck in a foreign country
I thought that Canada was the country that she was normally resident in before the extradition proceedings began. Besides, it's a huge country where she has friends and family can visit her. It's not like she's stuck in Singapore or Hong Kong whilst she was transiting somewhere else. Hardly unfair in my book.

for more than a year.
That's because her own defence team are delaying the proceedings by making them overly complicated. For example, see the judge's comments earlier this year on their position, which suggests the idea that their defence is nonsense (but they're getting the leeway to pursue it nonetheless).

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Also, whilst I appreciate that the judge may look at the issue again at the final hearing, at least a preliminary ruling has been made that says the alleged offence would be a crime in Canada.

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"A B.C. Supreme Court judge has delivered a major blow to Meng Wanzhou, ruling that extradition proceedings against the Huawei executive should proceed. In a widely anticipated decision on so-called double criminality, Associate Chief Justice Heather Holmes said the offence Meng is accused of by American prosecutors would be considered a crime if it occurred in Canada."

Again, just theory. Many people cannot afford bail and are just remanded into custody.
I didn't say 100% of people get bail, I said that generally bail is much more affordable than you made out. I gave you an article that showed bail amounts are much lower for ordinary people. There are also bail bondsman that will cover you - you can search the internet for them yourself. Yes, some people may not be able to offer any surety at all, but that doesn't mean the majority of people cannot get bail. For example, the Canadian Department of Justice estimates that:

"about 66% of accused initially detained by police following their arrest were released at their bail hearing"

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Actually, I merely posted my travel observations and the changes that I saw.
If you're going to base your views of a country on what you see it's obviously going to be inaccurate. I saw what you might call relative poverty in China, but not abject poverty bar a few beggars. That doesn't mean I thought it didn't exist, because I understood I had no reason to go into those communities where people struggled to make ends meet - and it would have been highly embarrassing for them if I'd made it part of my plans. People who go to China for business, tourism or even family visits are not going to see much poverty unless they want to find it.

Nor did I ever say rights under the law were "worthless"
"Long story short, things are just different. What is "freedom" worth? It is not tangible."

I'm happy for you to set the record straight. What rights do you have in Canada that you think are worthwhile that you wouldn't have in China (whether according to Chinese law or how Chinese law is practised in reality)?

or that I even supported CCP policies.
Ok, I could be wrong on that. Do you oppose any CCP policies in China or Hong Kong?

What I did suggest is that if you can't vote at a ballot box, you can vote with your feet.
First, as I said, if you get an exit ban in China you can't go anywhere.

Second, poorer Chinese don't have the money to travel abroad and set up a new life, nor will they qualify for a visa.

I also suggested there is a price to pay to improve livelihoods.
I wasn't really clear on that. Could you be more specific?

I also never implied that CCP improved livelihood in HK, in fact I said that HK stagnated (“HK no longer has that modern feeling”).
I think you did imply it when you said:

"What is eliminating widespread illiteracy and hunger/poverty worth? That was a reality in old China and old HK."

If you want to say that the CCP's policies for HK have failed in addressing poverty or income inequality I'm not going to criticise you for that.
 

Gatekeeper

Major
Registered Member
Guys. The mental gymnasts is storing in this one. How anybody can manipulated that Meng wasn't in transit is beyond comprehesion. Just because she has a home in Canada. Well hate to inform your ignorance. So does lots of rich people have multiple homes all over the world. The fact she was on route to South America for a conference is not a transit. Gee.

And here's a killer punch. The fact she was detained for nearly two years was her fault. She and her defence lawyers did that. Wow. That's some mind gymnastics going there.

And then in previous post, he was complaining China holding Canadians for a lengthy time!

@supersnoop

Credit to you to continue to engage debating with, clearly, a mind that's unengable.
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
Guys. The mental gymnasts is storing in this one. How anybody can manipulated that Meng wasn't in transit is beyond comprehesion. Just because she has a home in Canada. Well hate to inform your ignorance. So does lots of rich people have multiple homes all over the world. The fact she was on route to South America for a conference is not a transit. Gee.

And here's a killer punch. The fact she was detained for nearly two years was her fault. She and her defence lawyers did that. Wow. That's some mind gymnastics going there.

And then in previous post, he was complaining China holding Canadians for a lengthy time!

@supersnoop

Credit to you to continue to engage debating with, clearly, a mind that's unengable.
I have actually tried to avoid on this thread. However, he is trying to twist my words and frankly it is distasteful. I can't stand for my words to be misrepresented in this way. It's like Neil Young who wrote the song "Rockin' in the Free World" as a protest against Reagan's policies, being used by Donald Trump.

I thought that Canada was the country that she was normally resident in before the extradition proceedings began. Besides, it's a huge country where she has friends and family can visit her. It's not like she's stuck in Singapore or Hong Kong whilst she was transiting somewhere else. Hardly unfair in my book.
You would be wrong. Period.

Anyway, everything you said merely deflects from the fact that I said it was politically motivated and she enjoys greater freedom due to her wealth. Nothing you said actually addresses that assertion.

All your paragraphs below regarding bail are equally pointless because even if 100% of people have the opportunity for bail, does not mean they can put up the bond which was my point.

If you're going to base your views of a country on what you see it's obviously going to be inaccurate. I saw what you might call relative poverty in China, but not abject poverty bar a few beggars. That doesn't mean I thought it didn't exist, because I understood I had no reason to go into those communities where people struggled to make ends meet - and it would have been highly embarrassing for them if I'd made it part of my plans. People who go to China for business, tourism or even family visits are not going to see much poverty unless they want to find it.
You don't know anything about me, so don't play "primary school chicken" with me.

I don't like divulging too much personal information on the internet, but I can't let this go. Only one generation separates me from totally illiterate family. This is not a case of quitting school early to make ends meet, or not taking school seriously enough as a youth. Just due to circumstances, total illiteracy, can't even write one's own name.

Futhermore, although I have not witnessed it first hand, my family has close family friends who have gone to the hilly regions of Sichuan to help Yi minority people. This is heartbreaking poverty. Conditions that are simply non-existent in the West, you can't even make a comparison.

"Long story short, things are just different. What is "freedom" worth? It is not tangible."

I'm happy for you to set the record straight. What rights do you have in Canada that you think are worthwhile that you wouldn't have in China (whether according to Chinese law or how Chinese law is practised in reality)?


Ok, I could be wrong on that. Do you oppose any CCP policies in China or Hong Kong?

First, as I said, if you get an exit ban in China you can't go anywhere.

Second, poorer Chinese don't have the money to travel abroad and set up a new life, nor will they qualify for a visa.


I wasn't really clear on that. Could you be more specific?


I think you did imply it when you said:

"What is eliminating widespread illiteracy and hunger/poverty worth? That was a reality in old China and old HK."

If you want to say that the CCP's policies for HK have failed in addressing poverty or income inequality I'm not going to criticise you for that.
Once again, you are the master of deflection or creating your own context for quotations.

1. My opinions are irrelevant to my assertion. Freedom is not tangible, it can't be held, smelled, whatever, that is a fact. It can't be argued. My main point was people are mostly free to leave China as they please. You fail to strongly address that. Most people are not getting exit bans, and poorer people are more concerned with just living. So yes, you are wrong.
2. No surprise you don't understand. You assumed my position and were wrong from the get-go. Political rights usually take a back seat to economic development, this is just history.
3. "You think...", but once again you are wrong. Plus you compound this with a tyro attempt to twist my words. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
In your zeal to denounce the CCP, you once again made the wrong assumptions.
First, a lesson on verb tense - when you combine "To be" with a present participle (ending in "-ing"), this is called "Continuous Tense", indicating an ongoing action. Poverty alleviation is a ongoing action.
Second, I specifically said "widespread". Are going to try to tell me that literacy rates have not improved in mainland China under the CCP? Are you going to teach me some "alternative facts"?
It was in the 70's that the British-controlled government took concrete steps to improve the education system in HK. I did not imply or attribute this to CCP.
 
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Gatekeeper

Major
Registered Member
I have actually tried to avoid on this thread. However, he is trying to twist my words and frankly it is distasteful. I can't stand for my words to be misrepresented in this way. It's like Neil Young who wrote the song "Rockin' in the Free World" as a protest against Reagan's policies, being used by Donald Trump.



You would be wrong. Period.

Anyway, everything you said merely deflects from the fact that I said it was politically motivated and she enjoys greater freedom due to her wealth. Nothing you said actually addresses that assertion.

All your paragraphs below regarding bail are equally pointless because even if 100% of people have the opportunity for bail, does not mean they can put up the bond which was my point.



You don't know anything about me, so don't play "primary school chicken" with me.

I don't like divulging too much personal information on the internet, but I can't let this go. Only one generation separates me from totally illiterate family. This is not a case of quitting school early to make ends meet, or not taking school seriously enough as a youth. Just due to circumstances, total illiteracy, can't even write one's own name.

Futhermore, although I have not witnessed it first hand, my family has close family friends who have gone to the hilly regions of Sichuan to help Yi minority people. This is heartbreaking poverty. Conditions that are simply non-existent in the West, you can't even make a comparison.



Once again, you are the master of deflection or creating your own context for quotations.

1. My opinions are irrelevant to my assertion. Freedom is not tangible, it can't be held, smelled, whatever, that is a fact. It can't be argued. My main point was people are mostly free to leave China as they please. You fail to strongly address that. Most people are not getting exit bans, and poorer people are more concerned with just living. So yes, you are wrong.
2. No surprise you don't understand. You assumed my position and were wrong from the get-go. Political rights usually take a back seat to economic development, this is just history.
3. "You think...", but once again you are wrong. Plus you compound this with a tyro attempt to twist my words. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
In your zeal to denounce the CCP, you once again made the wrong assumptions.
First, a lesson on verb tense - when you combine "To be" with a present participle (ending in "-ing"), this is called "Continuous Tense", indicating an ongoing action. Poverty alleviation is a ongoing action.
Second, I specifically said "widespread". Are going to try to tell me that literacy rates have not improved in mainland China under the CCP? Are you going to teach me some "alternative facts"?
It was in the 70's that the British-controlled government took concrete steps to improve the education system in HK. I did not imply or attribute this to CCP.
I agree with you and feel your frustration. Our friend is a master at manipulating people's words to suit his own agenda. He's debating technique are deflect, manipulate, and if that fails, completely change direction. He's also an angry person. There are lots of anger issues there, couple with pure hatred of anything CCP.

So please don't take it to heart. I for example ignore him, or correct him on here so members here can make their minds up about his assertion. Whatever you do. Don't let him get under your skin.

We Chinese understand hard work and hardship. My elder brothers for example have to come out to work at 13 (not because they are drop outs) so I can start my primary school education. Because education is not free in Hong Kong back then under the "golden" British period That he keeps on about. My parents have to make that choice because we are not from a wealthy background. And this is the same for millions of Hong Kongers under the British colonial rule. I doubt he's done a hard day's work in his life.
 

Gatekeeper

Major
Registered Member
Anyway here's a poster from the thugs regarding tomorrow. Oct 1st. National day. The caption says, no national day celebration, only national day injury.

Is there no end to their madness.

FB_IMG_1601487079256.jpg
 

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